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Ted Pugliese
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Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 9:39pm | IP Logged | 1
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Hating and persecuting anybody doesn't make any sense.
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Andrew Hess
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 2
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William -
I'm forgetting my New Testament, but did Jesus really say anything against homosexuals in particular?
I know "homosexuality is an abomonation" (et al) crops up in the Original Testament a few times, and that Jesus was all over hewing close to the Torah, but don't remember Jesus speaking out about gays.
And mind you, homosexuality isn't the only thing that is Outlawed in the Bible, but for some reason it does seem to be the one thing that many people seem to remember.
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Ted Pugliese
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| Posted: 15 July 2010 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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Thank you, Andrew. Unless we are both mistaken...
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 4
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It's St Paul with the hang-ups about sex in the New Testament, but he himself followed the Old Testament code closely throughout his life, more so than he expected most Christians to. But if St Paul says it's wrong, it's wrong in most of Christianity. As far as I know, Jesus never mentioned homosexuality himself, but that also means that he didn't personally relax any rules against it.
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Brad Krawchuk
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 5
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I wonder, considering the state of Christians and how many actually follow what Jesus supposedly said, and not just whatever else they find in the Bible, if Jesus himself had said "gay sex is MARVELOUS and TOTALLY ACCEPTABLE" that they would be okay with it? How many would go back to the Old Testament and believe that?
How can people call themselves Christian and be so entirely unaware of what Jesus Christ said, did, and how he behaved? Why don't they follow that example?
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Thanos Kollias
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 1:11am | IP Logged | 6
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Actually, according to the Bible, Jesus wants us to kill the homosexuals. I think that's how they justify hating and persecuting them.
++++++++++
I expect JB to chastise your inaccurate use of the word "actually".
Jesus didn't say anything about homosexuality, as far as I remember.
He did say, though, that he who is without sin, let him cast the first stone. So, even if in the eyes of a Christian homosexuality is a sin, the Christian shouldn't hurt, condemn or criticize homosexuals.
As for St Paul's remarks in the Epistoles, there are many homosexuals who don't read them as attacks on homosexuals! Especially when it's a criticism on how the Ethnikoi (not Christians) chose to live, many of whom, especially Greeks and Romans, exercised homosexual acts NOT because of their genetic predisposition, but as a lifestyle choice and which usually included pedophilia (which isn't something I consider to be genetically determined, btw). And let's not forget that the list of sins that follows the remark on homosexuality in the 1st Epistoli pros Korinthious and determines which people deserve death, doesn't include homosexuality! It does include a big deal of other, everyday sins, though. Homosexuality isn't the target, at least in my reading of the text.
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Regan Tyndall
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Joined: 12 November 2008
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 2:04am | IP Logged | 7
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Brad said: "How can people call themselves Christian and be so entirely unaware of what Jesus Christ said, did, and how he behaved? Why don't they follow that example?" In fact, lots of people do. They're usually everyday people that a) don't talk about their religion, b) don't judge other people outwardly, c) don't condemn people for having alternative (to their) lifestyles and beliefs, and d) don't watch Fox news or go to NRA rallies. As with most things in life, the squeaky wheels who are noisiest in trying to get the grease are the ones who ruin it for everyone else. The best example of a Christian (or, for that matter, a man) I've ever seen is my maternal Grandfather, still alive and going strong at 95. The humblest and strongest person I've ever known. Perfect husband, perfect father. His eldest daughter, by the way, is a lesbian, whom he loves and supports, as does his church, which has numerous gay/lesbian ministers.
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Brad Krawchuk
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 2:21am | IP Logged | 8
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My follow up question, then, is how can those people allow others to call themselves Christian when they so clearly are not?
It'd be like, if I started calling myself Buddhist, and I ran around telling people they deserve to suffer greatly and die because they're not blonde, I'm pretty sure most Buddhists - in fact, most people in general - would take one look at me and say "Buddy, you aren't a Buddhist!"
Buddhism is a pretty laid back kinda religion, isn't it? It's all about inner peace, stuff like that. I can't picture them reacting violently as a group towards me for such an infraction. They wouldn't have to swear, threaten my life, or anything of that nature. But at the same time, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't just say "live and let live" they'd politely but firmly speak out against my words and divorce themselves from any of my actions.
One of the main criticisms of Islam as a religion is that they don't speak out against Osama Bin Laden loudly enough. The silence about certain things is seen as tacit support if not acceptance.
Where're the GOOD Christians pointing at these troglodytes saying "That's NOT Christianity!"? Or is their silence a form of approval?
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Regan Tyndall
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 2:30am | IP Logged | 9
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According to my Buddhist teacher here in Taiwan, Buddhism is almost entirely about "awareness". This is the word he beats home about 100 times each lesson. The goal of meditation (he says) is to reach the stage of having your left brain completely turned off, and existing only in the right brain, where we literally cannot understand ourselves as beings separate from the natural/physical world around us. Don't think there's anything notable about "inner peace" in Buddhism -- many of the world's most repressive regimes are spiritually governed by Buddhism, the Khmer Rouge were Buddhists, Myanmar is a Buddhist country, the Tibetans were/are a highly militaristic people, etc. By the way, I applaud your point about "pointing at these troglodytes". Indeed, there is FAR TOO LITTLE of this in what are the respectable (in my opinion) Christian churches.
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Brad Krawchuk
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 2:45am | IP Logged | 10
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Shows what I know about Buddhism - thanks for the mini lesson!
I think quiet Christians - and I almost consider myself one - need to be a little more proactive. On the other hand, the proactive path I'm currently on is leading me to atheism, because I'm starting to realize that even though I'd like there to be a kind, loving God, there doesn't need to be one. Things can be just fine without one.
I'm in an odd place spiritually. Teachings like compassion, redemption, forgiveness, humility - these are all excellent qualities and should be valued greater than they are. They are some of the basic tenets of Christianity, yet I very rarely hear or see Christians I know espousing them or living lives like you say your grandfather lives.
He sounds like a good man.
Me? I try to be a good man. Fail spectacularly sometimes. But at the same time, I'm starting to look at those above ideals as something to strive for in and of themselves, for no reason other than they seem like the best way to get along with people in a diverse society. Trying to be reasonable, fair, open minded, and loving. Not holding on to hate or bitterness against people, but feeling pity and sympathy for those who just don't get it, and still being kind to them regardless.
I dunno. To me, that sounds kinda like I want to be a Christian... if the word Christian actually described those qualities. Today, I hear that word I think bigotry, ignorance, hatred, vengeance. I just can't picture what a "good Christian" would be.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 3:20am | IP Logged | 11
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Ah. Yes. But what is the Buddhist stance on gay adoptions?
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Thanos Kollias
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| Posted: 16 July 2010 at 3:27am | IP Logged | 12
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As a Orthodox Christian in an really conservative social background, I have noticed many instances that people blindly follow what they are told.
The Greek Orthodox Church is one such example. Sometimes, the teachings of the Church come to contradict what Jesus tells us through the gospels. But, since many of those attending the church are of older age, lower social status and in many cases lack education, they can't form their own opinion, they just take for granted what is being told by the Church. In the vast majority of cases, the Church's teachings if followed will lead them into being better people.
But, man's nature is to be in opposition of everything that is different than him, in whatever level (sports, politics, religion). As some people take this opposition to the next level, they become zealots who end up hating other people for their lifestyle, sexual orientation, religion, whatever. But, if something is condoned by the Church, they will embrace it. One easy example is marriage. According to the Greek Church, a person can marry up to 3 times. According to Jesus, only once. Jesus even objected to Abraham's lenience on the matter. Guess what the zealots consider as correct? The 3 marriages limit.
On the matter at hand, because of passages in the Old Testament and the references in Paul's Epistoles, people (Christians and non Christians alike) attribute to Jesus a hate towards homosexuals, where no such stance is apparent.
Edited by Thanos Kollias on 16 July 2010 at 3:29am
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Topic Closed)
