Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 29 Next >>
Topic: Fighting for Ignorance (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 1  

Paul,

I do not consider you to be nor do I wish to treat you as an idiot, and I apologize for misunderstanding your objection. However, it appears you missed two key points of my post:

  • "annual year-end stand-up comedy routine at school for the parents night"
  • "And it's a little too edgy, so I resisted temptation."

In short, Paul, that comedy routine has always been written for and delivered to PARENTS, not other children. And, more to the point, while I CONSIDERED the joke, I ultimately rejected it, precisely because of the misinterpretation of the material that you appeared to share.

Am I still a monster?

One thing does irk me, Paul, and this is not directed to you specifically. In your note, you automatically interpreted a joke about the President to be racist. A number of people seem to default to that state.

When will we be allowed to look at Barack Obama and see a President who takes all the gentle slings and barbs of comedy that come with the office instead of a black man whom we must treat with kid gloves?



Edited by Matthew McCallum on 25 May 2010 at 5:12pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Paul Greer
Byrne Robotics Security
Avatar

Joined: 18 August 2004
Posts: 14191
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 5:31pm | IP Logged | 2  

Matthew, forgive me if I don't recall the long tradition of making jokes about killing Presidents. Last I heard any threat made against the President (even in jest) is considered a crime. I'm all for poking fun at politicians. They all pretty much suck and I support political satire. However, gentle slings and barbs of comedy are not the same as joking about killing him.

Do people play the race card when they shouldn't? Yes they do. Do people downplay the race card when they shouldn't? Yes they do.

Back to Top profile | search
 
William McCormick
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 February 2006
Posts: 3297
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 6:13pm | IP Logged | 3  

If I had seen 6 or 7 students in full Nazi regalia (for comparison, as that would be an equivalent over here) walking through school during lunch-hour, my first thoughts wouldn't be "blitzkrieg" or "ethnic cleansing" but ... Student Film project.

******************

That's all well and good, but if you were a black student in Georgia you might interpret a bunch of kids in Klan robes just a little bit differently. Since the Klan is still alive and well, and last time I checked the Nazi party wasn't (at least not the Nazi party that would be decked out in full WWII regalia), they're really not equivalent at all. 

The teacher was wrong, the students were wrong. Period.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 6:17pm | IP Logged | 4  

Paul,

See, and here I thought you said you understood: the joke in question is not about assassinating a president; it's about how such a math lesson is impractical.

But force fit the facts as you would have them.

And as far as the race card game, deal me out of this hand. I've no interest in playing.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 9:53pm | IP Logged | 5  

On a totally unrelated note - I saw a guy beat another guy to death once - he just beat the man mercilessly - hit the guy till he was pulpy - and then, when the guy was dead, and the guy beating him had ... you know, ejaculated or whatever, he went over to the dead guy and said "You're not dead... come on, wake up, everything's ok. Come on, buddy. We're pals. Come on, wake up! Hey! We're all ok now! Nothing happened! That beating? What are you talking about? That guy is gone! Wake up, buddy, everything is ok!"

Of course, the dead guy stayed dead, and then the beater got up and started pointing at the dead guy, saying "See! It's his fault! I told him everything is ok, but he just lays there!"

Not sure what made me think of that story, but there it is.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 6  

Gee whiz, Mike, nice story and all, but I wish you could have offered a useful parable or something like that...
Back to Top profile | search
 
Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 7  

Usually schools have a general policy about what is acceptable or not when it comes to student attire. If a student willingly crosses that boundary he also willingly accepts any consequences for doing it. 

That being said, wearing flag colors (of any nation) isn't offensive in any way, regardless of the event (by the way, in the USA, Cinco De Mayo is only known as May 5th.) It's about as heralded as May 6th, or May 7th. Any observations of foreign holidays is purely voluntary by institutions. 

If people are offended because I wore an American flag-themed t-shirt on May 5th, or on St. Patrick's Day, or Christmas, then let them be offended. I could care less. I'm right and they're right... that's what makes America beautiful, man! Their only actions should be to maintain civility and ignore me. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 8  

Hey, Mike, as long as we're sharing completely unrelated thoughts -- in the last couple of months we got a new puppy in the McCallum household, a little chiquaqua named Pixie.

Like her name, she's wonderfully affectionate and fun, and such a very tiny, fragile little thing. I've discovered she's particularly prone to scurrying and scampering around the house, skittering silently across the carpet and, without meaning to, getting underfoot without you noticing. One misstep on your part, and boy, does she yelp as you inadvertently step on a paw or give her an unintended boot. She scootches down on the ground, cowering, looking up at you with those big brown eyes that seemingly say "What happened? Why did you do that? What did I do wrong?"

Of course, you feel just as horrible as she does. You pick her up and cuddle her, let her know that it was an accident. And in a heartbeat, she's licking your face and all appears forgiven.

But that isn't a satisfactory resolution. It's easy enough to blame the dog for getting under your feet and in your way and being at fault for getting stepped on, but the truth is she doesn't know any better. She has no frame of reference by which to gauge or anticipate your actions. So I realize it's up to me to be extra careful, to be more aware of where she is, to recognize that I've got a new addition to the household who is easily hurt if I am inattentive. That doesn't mean I still won't accidentally tread on a paw now and then, but likewise I'm not out to deliberately harm the puppy.

I do have one concern, however. Probably baseless, but you still can't help worrying about these kind of things in this day and age. If I take the puppy over to someone else's house, and Pixie and I get tripped up in that manner, what does the other person think? Now, if it's a close friend who knows the type of person I am, or someone who's familiar with the nature of awkward puppies, it's probably not much of a concern.

But if exactly the same incident happens in the house of stranger or an acquaintance, particularly one with a predisposition to look for animal abuse?


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 25 May 2010 at 11:33pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:19pm | IP Logged | 9  

I see two parables in that one! Clever!
Back to Top profile | search
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:21pm | IP Logged | 10  

"Knut, what I take offense to is the fact that you think the black kid getting angry about seeing people dressed up in KKK uniforms is worse than the racially insensitive jokes."

That is not a fact.  I said that a guy threatening violence (and he makes it quite clear that he was ready to kick some ass) against people who have not done anything is worse than inappropriate humor that may come as a response to that threat.

It is clear from the article and other articles that they were simply passing through the cafeteria on the way to another location on school grounds and they had lost track of time so they didn't realize it was lunch hour.  They were not "parading around".  The jokes and everything, that followed after them being stopped.  No honors student is going to do something like make that joke unsolicited to a stranger while the teacher is leading them from one part of school to another for a school project.

Now, the situation may be more complex, but to me it simply looks like the black kid was picking a fight he shouldn't have (going for physical violence) and the kids in the costumes were lashing out verbally with some lame jokes.

"The teacher should have known better than to let the kids parade around the school in those outfits. How dumb could she have been not to think this wouldn't have caused problems?"

I'm going to presume that's a typo, there.  But as I said, they were not parading around ,they were not trying to provoke anyone, they were accompanied by a teacher. They simply didn't take into account it being the lunch hour. Usually, when you're filming cheap and fast you want to avoid time consuming costume changes just because you're going to take a 2 minute walk to the next location. 

Besides, if someone had calmly asked "what's all this then?" and accepted the teacher's assurances that it was simply a Student Film, that should have been the end of it.

"But really Knut, keep blaming the black people whenever white people do something stupid."

What exactly is stupid, here?

They were making a Student Film about racism in America, they were wearing costumes and they were using the school as a location because it was cheap and fast.  The only mistake they did was not realizing it was the lunch hour.

Maybe they should have been more careful about that, or at least taken the hoods off.  Maybe.

What turned this into a situation was a black kid immediately jumping to the conclusion that these were racist white people in need of a good beating. 

He's not even presenting it as if he walks over to them all friendly, asking them what they're doing and what's with the costumes, only then to be accosted with racial slurs. He describes seeing them and immediately becoming very angry and deciding to kick some ass.

He was offended, he reacted rashly and things escalated from that. That is the timeline presented by every article I've seen on this.  The inappropriate humor is a byproduct of this situation. It is not the cause of it.

As for it being a given that seeing a lot of people walking calmly through the school accompanied by a teacher while wearing Klan robes must suggest actual Klansmen rather than actors in costume? That might be quite a leap. Especially in a predominantly white school.

In hindsight, a mistake. But so was the aggressive response from the black student. There is no suggestion anywhere in the article that there is any particular history of racist conflict in the school, and indeed several of the History students were of another race than white (presumably asian or hispanic, the article just says there were no black kids).    

Back to Top profile | search
 
Matthew McCallum
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 2711
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | 11  

I see two parables in that one! Clever!

Can we consider that a pair-able then?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar
Official JB Historian

Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
Posted: 25 May 2010 at 11:34pm | IP Logged | 12  

By the way - I won't beat around the bush - and partially to let Matthew off the hook, since it wasn't aimed at him - but here's my gripe with race issues in America:

I only ever notice (and that could be a problem with perception, frankly) white people telling others to get over race. I don't see a lot of minorities going "Ah, we're all good - there's no difference between any of the races, the playing ground has never been more level!"

Because they know better.

And it kind of irks me when the whites say it because it's a shirking of blame and responsibility, and it's just dishonest.

You kick a guy's ass, it's up to that guy to tell you he's ok, not you.

let me stop and check my watch... hang on... counting down... 3...2...1 DING! Yes! Right on time, we have our participant! Yes, white man?

"I never owned a slave! Why should I have to treat blacks nice?"

Very good! Very good, and predictable question. Thank you.   The answer is that you are still benefitting, like it or not, from the fruits of slavery's labor. Because the white race is still in a position of power and the playing field is still not level. I don't care how much you talk about getting along and how many checks you write to the NAACP and how often you tune in the Cosby show, the problem isn't solved by your hopes and prayers.

Sorry! Wish it was.

I could add: It's also not solved because you're tired of being inconvienced, but I'll not go that far in this rant.

Here's where the problem is solved - when things are equal. Actually equal, not equal because you say they are.

"b-b-b-but Obama is the President...!" I know! Great start, isn't it? Only 130 some-odd years after the end of slavery! Only 40+ years since the Civil Rights Act!

These changes come slow - don't think your wishing and hoping will make them happen. Your ACTIONS will go a long way to moving it along, but speaking as a student of history, I feel safe in saying it's not going to happen in your grandchildren's lifes. Things move slowly. And in a lot of parts of America, they're still teaching hate to each new generation, so... you know...

That's my beef. My spidey-sense goes ape-shit when white people downplay racial inequality in America. Speaking as a white person, let me be the first to say - we don't have a moral leg to stand on in doing that.

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 29 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login