Has that been firmly established that's what was happening at Live Oak High School, Mike?

Nope - nothing has been established either way - the right says they were just innocent patriots and the left says they were bullies. If you can prove it either way, one of us will be right and the other will stand down, just as I did above with Randy's post. Though, frankly, I want a second opinion. I know how school kids act - I went to high school for a year not too far from there - tensions were THICK between whites and non-whites (of all kinds, really) so my gut feeling is that these kids aren't just innocent patriots, but instead the same kinds of pricks that screwed with me when I was in High School.

Prove me wrong.

But for the sake of argument, let's say these guys ARE troublemakers, and they wore those clothes for all the wrong reasons. Are such clothes really bait? And if so, do the other students have to rise to it?

They don't even have to worry about it since the administrator did his job and nipped it in the bud.

We are supposed to be teaching tolerance and understanding, after all, and the principle should be extended to tolerating -- assuming this is the case -- disrespectful idiot thugs who are otherwise causing no harm.

We tolerate bad behavior? No - that's just more South-Park-isms. (Trey Parker deserves life in prison for helping dumb down America with his shitty propaganda) Tolerance doesn't mean we tolerate everything - do you tolerate having a child molestor in your neighborhood? Do you tolerate it when a guy stabs his wife?

Give it up with that tolerance nonsense.

And were the kids causing no harm? That's up for debate. They came to school - in my opinion - to start a fight. If you can prove me wrong on that, I'll eat my words.

And, just for sake of argument, let's assume I show up at school that day and find myself surrounded by 300 kids decked out in the Mexican flag. If this is indeed a politically charged topic at that school and a powder keg of violence -- otherwise, why would we be concerned about four punks and their gringo t-shirts? -- might I not find such an exhibition to be unnerving, uncomfortable, and possibly even a little threatening? Could I be subjected to peer pressure as to why I'm not wearing green, white and red? And is any of that the school's responsibility to address?

If you feel uncomfortable or threatened, you can take it up with the school and they will then shit all over everyone's fun because you raised a stink - yes it does go both ways, but who complained? (Yet. Now that the conservative media has this in their jaws, just see if that school ever even serves burritos in their cafeteria again)

I fully admit that I don't know what was going on in those kids heads, but I read into the story some context - why would that happen the say it did, logically? My logic says those kids were singled out because they have a history of that sort of behavoir, and that the rest of the school was not singled out because there was no history of threats or violence to those not participating. That's just me guessing, but it was an easy guess.

I have to jump through a lot of illogicial hoops to get to the conservative position, whereby it was some crazy conspiracy and the poor li'l patriots were singled out, even though they didn't know better and they were just innocently wearing shirts that they wear every day, and even though the all the white students were so put upon by kids enjoying a holiday, the staff refused to listen to them thanks to PC gone amuck and .... I can't even type this crap - it just isn't rational or believable to me.

We can dance around this all day and night, but till you can follow Randy's example and prove me wrong, then all we're doing is dancing in circles.

I don't think it is inappropriate to suspect that it was coordinated.

But it doesn't matter if it was or wasn't. A conversation that runs "Everyone is wearing Mexican colours tomorrow. I'm an American and I want to wear an American flag" followed by "Cool. Me too" is coordinated but is also not draped in malice.

The point is the wearing of the US colours by those kids was viewed as "incendiary" by the assistant principal. Which begs the question: Why?

Was it because two of the kids wearing US colours were Latino, and there was an issue with someone choosing not embrace his Mexican heritage that day?

If it is the shirts in and of themselves that prompted the trip to the Principal's Office, then a case can be made that the administration needlessly overreacted.

If it was the behaviour of the students who were wearing those shirts that generated the Office trip, then what they were wearing while behaving badly is really of little consequence.

Again, it's when 200 STUDENTS from that school march the next day and say wearing an American t-shirt in the United States of America is DISRESPECTFUL (again, their word) on Cinco de Mayo, for me, that's the Through the Looking Glass moment.

I say this is a tempest in a teapot.

Kids do silly shit all the time. Who on this board WASN'T sent home from school? Who on this board DIDN'T participate in a stupid political march when they were young?

I can't deny either of those.

Boo hoo - a flag was disrespected. That effects me or any of us... how?

I was sent home from school twice - once for speaking at a school rally - where they asked if anyone had anything to say, and I got up, marched to the front of the rally, took the mic and asked why were were being made to be in the rally when we could have spent time in class where we belonged - to huge cheers, by the way - (the rallies were so lame that most of us prefered being in class!) - I was sent home. You do not have freedom of speech in school. Period.

Second time I was sent home? Some white bullies were picking on a Mexican girl and I stood up to defend her.

The guy who taught kids how to shoot the boss? They're not talking about that on the radio.

Mike O'B,

The evidence at this point is lacking and inconclusive. I think you've made a reasonable conjecture with the limited evidence available. That limited evidence, however, also supports other conclusions equally well. I wish someone in the media would actually pursue the story rather than the horserace, the dance, and the posturing so we could fill in the gaps in the chain of evidence and get to the truth.

You've said before that you've got a dog in this race. I don't. You've either got a better feel for the situation or a blind spot. Until proven otherwise, I will assume it's a better feel.

And I likely come from a completely different high school experience. Ross Sheppard was a 1,400 student facility in a country that was very multi-cultural and colour-blind. A lot of those students were hyphenated Canadians, first- or second-generation, but regardless we all were Canadians.

I also know the area it happened in (grew up in SF, but I did breifly attend a school on the peninsula, which is half-way between SF and SJ) so I know the attitudes of the area.

I'm totally willing to admit that I'm rushing to my own judgement here - and am happy to admit my bias, and hope that others are also looking inward.

Having said that, I also agree - at least personally - about your final sentiment. I, too, am a Canadian. No, wait - got that wrong - I am an American. I am not a Mexican-American, or an Irish-American, but that's because (full circle time!) I go back to Malcolm X's use of the term - it wasn't meant to be a catch-all for all races - in fact, we all are just Americans - but we happen to be Americans of different backgrounds - I come from Irish and Mexican and Austrian people, that guy comes from French, that guy's parents were Salvadorian, that lady there traces her roots back to India, etc.

Blacks in America can't do that - they can't say "My ancestors were from Chad" because they don't know - the slaves that most black Americans descend from were just gathered up from various parts of Africa (mostly west and central) and mixed together on a boat, taught English and were put to work. That's why the term "African-American" ("Afro-Americans" as Malcolm X called it) exists. They didn't immigrate to America with hopes and dreams, they were kidnapped and sold, as product. I know you know this - I don't aim this at you, Matthew, I'm just saying it aloud to back up my point (which was shot down before on this very board!) - there is no history, no language, no culture for them. These languages, histories, cultures exist, yes, and still thrive, but there's no way of knowing which part of the giant contenant you're from.

So, yes, yes, I never refer to myself as Anything-American, in part because I'm not that, I'm an American, but also, it's not for me to use. I don't need to attach that onto my identity because I know where my people came from.

I know little about Irish culture, tradition, Galic language, but I could go and learn it if I wanted, you know? I know the Mexican stuff because I grew up with the Mexican side of my family.