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John Byrne
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Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 7:50am | IP Logged | 1  

They were Jackasses, and they were fully within their rights to wear the US colours...unless, they were doing it to harass somebody. No one has a right to harass another person, especially in a public school.

••

There's that slippery slope again. If we assume the students in question had the right to wear the flag at all, we cannot really start splitting hairs over WHY they are wearing the flag. "Harassment" can be a difficult charge, depending as it does so much upon the response of the person who feels him/herself to be harassed.

There seems little doubt that the INTENT here was to make a point, and that point could easily cross the line into harassment -- but if ALL that is happening is that some punks are wearing the flag in order to make trouble, all that needs to be done to avoid trouble is. . . IGNORE them.

If they then PUSH the point, crossing over into physical actions, perhaps, THEN there is a clear and unquestionable case of harassment. But if we're just talking about some students taking offense, that, to me, is a dangerous place to go.

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Michael Penn
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 8:02am | IP Logged | 2  

The school could also have used the students' flag-wearing as a teaching tool. Take the point those students' were trying to make and expose it utterly to guided analysis and discussion and debate. Bogey-men only exist in shadows.

A favorite quote from a favorite film, "1776": 

Well, in all my years I ain't never heard, seen nor smelled an issue that was so dangerous it couldn't be talked about. Hell yeah! I'm for debating anything.
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Donald Miller
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 3  

My point was just that it was not okay to be harassing someone...in any way really.

My personal take is that the administrator missed a perfect opportunity to teach a lesson here. 

I would have called them into the celebration and made them a part of it...equating the symbolism of their flag shirts to the unity that now exists between our countries and/or  the dual cultures that exists for many Mexican Americans...using humor, and just pretending that the shirts were all part of the day...pulling together instead of pushing apart...

in doing so I would have completely reversed what the kids were so obviously trying to and ultimately successful in doing.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 4  

Context matters, Matthew.

I agree. Which is why I think (hope) there is a missing piece to the story.

If we're dealing with a group of punks with a history of causing trouble and they saw this was one more way of causing a ruckus -- essentially trying to put a turd in the punch bowl at someone's party -- then we're not engaged in a discussion on the appropriateness or not of a particular article of clothing and whether a school administrator overstepped his bounds.

Actually, what is much more interesting to me on a cultural scale is the reaction to this event, such as the Live Oak High School students who took to the streets because they found it disrespectful (their word, by the way) for people to wear American colours on Cinco de Mayo.

Just think about that for a moment. The perception of disrespect -- based on others wearing an article of clothing  -- prompted a march through the streets of Morgan Hill by 200 high school students.

Were I so inclined to put this to satire, Mike, this has the makings of a wonderful British farce!

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John Byrne
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:28am | IP Logged | 5  

My point was just that it was not okay to be harassing someone...in any way really.

••

I'm a High School student. I am also a grumpy gus. It's Valentine's Day. The school is festooned with paper hearts and pink and red ribbons. I come into class wearing a T-Shirt with a medical textbook representation of a real human heart emblazoned upon it. One of my fellow students is revolted by the image and complains to the Principal, saying my wearing the shirt constitutes harassment.

The Principal sends me home with an order to change my shirt.

Who's right, who's wrong?

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 6  

William,

I agree with you that articles of clothing that look like they were made out of the flag itsef -- like the graphic of the shirt you shared -- are just downright tacky.

Indeed, that shirt looks like something Evil Kenevil or Bronco Billy would wear while performing!

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Donald Miller
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:45am | IP Logged | 7  

I'm a High School student. I am also a grumpy gus. It's Valentine's Day. The school is festooned with paper hearts and pink and red ribbons. I come into class wearing a T-Shirt with a medical textbook representation of a real human heart emblazoned upon it. One of my fellow students is revolted by the image and complains to the Principal, saying my wearing the shirt constitutes harassment.

The Principal sends me home with an order to change my shirt.

Who's right, who's wrong?

You're right(and funny I might add)...both the student and the principal are wrong....

I am, of course, assuming you have left nothing out of the story.
Is this a continuing complaint on the girls part?  Do you have a history of approaching this girl with disturbing visceral images?  It really is all about context.

 I think the administrators made the wrong call...but I don't think they were crazy stupid wrong.  Just not giving their own student body the credit they deserve.

edited to add:
There are a very limited set of circumstances that could be construed as harassment all alone and a t-shirt with a questionable image is not one of them.


Edited by Donald Miller on 21 May 2010 at 11:48am
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 8  

I'm a High School student. I am also a grumpy gus. It's Valentine's Day.

Trick question, John!

St. Valentine's Day -- like St. Patrick's Day -- is obviously a Christian religious holiday and thus it shouldn't be celebrated in a publicly-funded high school. If that argument is insufficient, then a day dedicated to love and affection might lead to inappropriate physical contact and the potential sexual harassment of students at school. Under California law, we must ensure all places of business and public education remain safe environments lest we wish to entertain a lawsuit. And let's not forget that an excessive amount of chocolate leads to childhood obesity. That should be the kiss of death to it right there. And what about the children who don't receive any valentines? That's discriminatory, and could result in deep emotional scars that could negatively impact those student's lives.

What a horrible blight on the school calendar!

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Victor Rodgers
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 9  

Figured in a thread about ignorance this story deserved a mention:

http://www.bravewords.com/news/139360

Seems the Westboro Baptist Church is going to picket the funeral of Ronnie James Dio.

*****

I long for some destitute individual to punch Phelps in his withered old face.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 10  

You know, as a society, with some sort of collective sense of common decency, couldn't we all just agree to leave cemeteries -- particularly during the conduct of funeral services -- and private homes of individuals off the list of appropriate venues for protests?

 

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Jeremiah Avery
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 12:42pm | IP Logged | 11  

It's because funeral services are usually left alone out of decency is the reason why those pieces of trash are staging protests at them - in order to garner the most attention.

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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 21 May 2010 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 12  

David:
"Wearing the flag seems to an American thing. Irish people tend to keep it for Saint Patrick's Day."

Funny story along the same line, my husband's mom's parents were both from Ireland, they came in their 20's. Chuck's mom celebrated the hell out of St. Patrick's Day. Well Chuck was a freshman in high school and thought it would be hilarious to go to school on that day dressed in all Irish Republican Army colors. (See he is around the same age as these flag wearing guys, the immature smart ass age.)

Well his mom took one look at him and beat the shit out of him with her famous wooden spoon. Chuck went back upstairs changed into his green sweater and learned a valuable lesson that day, free speech does not apply to a minor in his mother's Irish house.

In my opinion, schools are like a home of sorts and the administration is the parent. It is their job to take over teaching my child and keep him as safe as possible while doing it. We live in a highly charged political environment right now, where legal American's that just happen to be of mexican descent will now have to carry papers/ ID proving they are here legally. Something myself who is blond and blue eyed won't.

Now take what that principle knows about these kids and the possibility of violence, he did the exact thing he needed to do and defuse the moment.

The only thing I think is the saddest is, these kids who are most likely douche bags and are more than likely, laughing their asses off thinking how funny they are and loving how they manipulated people's anti illegal immigration fever, so that they are getting all sorts of pats on the back.  Will see being a douche bag gets rewarded.

 I look for them to get jobs on Fox news. :0)


Edited by Jodi Moisan on 21 May 2010 at 12:50pm
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