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Steve Horn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 636
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 1
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I love the JLA/Avengers cross-over. It's my all time favorite comic book story.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:39pm | IP Logged | 2
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Frank wrote:
| Busiek didn't write that DC heroes are more powerful when they're in DC or that Marvel heroes are more powerful when they're in Marvel. |
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No, he just wrote the DC universe as being "better."
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 3
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I like both approaches, since at the end of the day the characters are all owned by different companies and really CAN'T be kept in the same reality outside of special events like this. So each telling of a crossover is on its own - there's no continuity or connection between any of them, and every time they have one it's the FIRST one.
The only exception I have is JB's Darkseid vs. Galactus: The Hunger. That, to me, takes place BEFORE Galactus' arrival on Earth for the first time, so clearly the New Gods and Galactus somehow exist in both the Marvel and DCUs. I like the idea that somewhere out there, Darkseid lurks waiting to unleash parademons upon an unsuspecting populace of Marvel New York. Also, Galactus could eat Mogo, but he just hasn't reached that sector of the DCU yet. It's the Kirby Factor that holds it all together.
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Frank Robert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 624
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:07pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
| No, he just wrote the DC universe as being "better." |
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I apologize, but I don't understand what you are trying to say here or how what you have written ties into your theory that Busiek wrote DC's heroes as stronger on DC Earth and weaker on Marvel Earth; Marvel's heroes as stronger on Marvel Earth and weaker on DC Earth.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 5
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Frank, I never propounded any such theory; only that Busiek made a point to delineate each universe, and with DC ultimately seemingly getting the edge.
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Frank Robert
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 624
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 6
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I apologize again, but I'm still not following you about "delineat[ing] each universe" and "DC ultimately seemingly getting the edge."
As far as I can tell, he simply had some characters beat other characters, with Superman beating Thor, Iron Man beating Wonder Woman, etc.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 7
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Frank wrote:
| I apologize again, but I'm still not following you about "delineat[ing] each universe" and "DC ultimately seemingly getting the edge." |
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Drawing attention to the differences of each universe. Was this not a feature of the series? The distinctness of each universe?
QUOTE:
| As far as I can tell, he simply had some characters beat other characters, with Superman beating Thor, Iron Man beating Wonder Woman, etc. |
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Well, Superman beating Thor pretty much settles the question, doesn't it? At least in Busiek's mind. But, just so Marvel fans don't feel bad, he arbitrarily has Iron Man defeat Wonder Woman (no particular reason why this should happen, but hey, Marvel has to even the "score" somehow). He also creates this situation with Thor's hammer and how Superman could only lift it because Mjolnir allowed him to. Or something.
It's fanboyish silliness. Just IMHO, though.
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Eric Smearman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 5839
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:37pm | IP Logged | 8
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Most of the DC-Marvel team ups have been written from the "We're from the same world but never met before" perspective. It even worked well for the X-Men-Titans book. For JLA/Avengers I think the dual worlds approach worked pretty well.
I enjoyed it, anyway...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133532
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:54pm | IP Logged | 9
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Ultimately, this is the kind of FanThink that worries about where the Avengers were when Galactus first attacked Earth. And, if the anal fanboys want to worry about such things, more power to 'em, sez I!The problem arises when those same anal fanboys become the people who are writing and editing the books, and instead of checking their FanThink at the door, as they should, being PROFESSIONALS now, they bring it in with them, and start EXPLAINING everything. My "favorite", many times cited, example, being OHOTMU informing us that Fin Fang Foom is TELEPHATHIC -- because, you know, a 200 foot long TALKING dragon would be UNREALISTIC!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133532
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 10
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If John Byrne wants to write a good story that ignores the whole "two Earths" nonsense and simply treats the heroes as if they had always been on the same Earth, and simply had not met before, I'm OK with that (and, IMO he has done so with Batman/Captain America, to pick one example). If Kurt Busiek wants to write a good story that does NOT ignore the whole "two Earths" nonsense, I'm OK with that, too (and, again IMO, he has done so with Avengers/JLA). •• It's hardly that simple. The first crossover -- SUPERMAN vs THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN -- established the heroes in the same world, and subsequent crossovers were comfortable continuing with that. I even did BATMAN & CAPTAIN AMERICA, set in WW2, and treated it as if the two heroes had always been in the same world, just never having met before. I didn't feel any need to explain how Batman could be in WW2. He just was. It wasn't until the crossovers were changed from an occasional Special Event into an Ongoing Series that it became "necessary" to "explain" how such meetings could happen. And, I protested that at the time, too!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133532
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:00pm | IP Logged | 11
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The hammer hits hard, but, even when its using energy effects, I don't recall it having any enchantment on it that negates invulnerability…•• You're working WAY too hard at missing the point.
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Jeremiah Avery
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 2431
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| Posted: 18 March 2010 at 3:11pm | IP Logged | 12
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The power levels that were listed in such handbooks and on the trading cards weren't even that consistent (e.g. two characters could both be 7 out of 7 for strength but one could still be stronger than the other). It's odd what some readers will and will not suspend their disbelief for. After the first movie came out, someone asked me how Wolverine's healing factor works. I figured I'd keep it simple and remark how it's a mutation that lets him heal from most injuries. The person wanted a more detailed explanation so as to make the character more "real" for them. Healing factor was a stretch, but a metal laced skeleton was plausible? Unless the functionality of the powers is a plot point/character trait (e.g. a solar powered character) a deep analysis really shouldn't be warranted. Just read the story.
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