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Vinny Valenti
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 1  

" In other words, the guy on the receiving end is going DOWN."

---

Wouldn't that include the Hulk as well? He should be just as vulnerable to magic. I'm admitting some ignorance here, but I could swear that the Hulk's withstood Thor's hammer in the past.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 2  

Wouldn't that include the Hulk as well? He should be just as vulnerable to magic. I'm admitting some ignorance here, but I could swear that the Hulk's withstood Thor's hammer in the past.

••

Altho Superman, as noted, does not have a SPECIAL vulnerability to magic -- ie, he is no MORE vulnerable to magic than anybody else -- where that vulnerability would manifest in a fight with Thor is that the magic in the hammer would have the effect of NEGATING Superman's powers.* So, as noted, the effect would be one enormously strong guy hitting another enormously strong guy.

In the case of the Hulk, however, the effect would be one enormously strong guy hitting ---- the Hulk! It would probably HURT a lot more than being hit by, say, a girder or a big chunk of rock, but it would not have the effect of placing the Hulk effectively on the same "plain" as Thor.

..

*This effect would be specific to the hammer. If someone was to SHOOT Superman at the same time the hammer hit, the bullet would still bounce off.

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Frank Robert
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 3  


 QUOTE:
Even tho Superman being hit with a MAGIC hammer would be like a normal man being hit with a sledgehammer?

The hammer hits hard, but, even when its using energy effects, I don't recall it having any enchantment on it that negates invulnerability -- and Superman does really well against things that hit hard, funky energy effects and all.  He's also shrugged off being blasted by the Silver Banshee's scream, lightning from the wizard Shazam, transmutation blasts by elder god magic, etc., etc. -- none of which reduced him to chunky salsa or anything like that.  He has his low showings against magic as all characters do, no doubt, but he's usually depicted as pretty tough against it: no more vulnerable to it than anyone with his level of power and strength of will, I've noticed, which has enabled him at times to shrug off mystical attacks that have floored Wonder Woman and everyone else in the League all at once.


Edited by Frank Robert on 18 March 2010 at 1:20pm
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:14am | IP Logged | 4  

 JB wrote:
(Incidentally, the whole thing is incredibly contrived, anyway. Previous cross-company crossovers, beginning with SUPERMAN vs THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, which set the "tone", IGNORED the whole "two Earths" nonsense and simply treated the heroes as if they had always been on the same Earth, and simply had not met before. That satisfied everyone but the most anal fanboys -- the same anal fanboys who eventually took over Marvel and DC and started messing things up.)

And the "in my world..." line is pretty lame; the comic seems to be too concerned with outlining why Marvel and DC are distinct. It's like if Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse met in ROGER RABBIT to carefully explain the subtle differences between WB and Disney cartoons.
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Frank Robert
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:18am | IP Logged | 5  


 QUOTE:
Reading this story, I remember having the feeling that Kurt Busiek didn't want to show his preference for a character over another, so it seems he came up with the idea that Marvel heroes are less powerfull when they stand on DC Universe's Earth and are stronger when they stand on THEIR Earth : that's the reason why, at a moment of the story, the Flash runs faster than Quicksilver because they are on the DC Universe's Earth and later, Quicksilver runs faster than the Flash on Marvel's Earth...

That's not the way it was, actually.  Flash slowed down on Marvel Earth because there is no Speed Force there, not because the DC heroes are all weaker on Marvel Earth than on DC Earth -- that's just not in the comic, though I have heard it as a heartbroken Marvel fan excuse (not saying this applies to you).  In fact, while on Marvel Earth, Aquaman of all people pitied its heroes as they were, in his opinion, less powerful than the heroes of DC Earth.  Powering down on Marvel Earth was unique to Flash -- happened to no other DC hero and happened to Flash because of the absence of his source of power, not simply because he was on Marvel Earth.


 QUOTE:
I don't exactly remember the story and at which moment Superman is hitten by Mjolnir, but I think it happens on DC Universe's Earth and so Superman is less vulnerable to magic on HIS Earth than on Marvel's Earth (or maybe the magic of Mjolnir is less powerfull on DC's Earth...)

Nope, Busiek simply wrote him as powerful enough to take Mjlonir's hits and put down Thor.


 QUOTE:
He came up with a good idea with Cap and Batman since they have no power: the two opponents start to fight and very quickly understand they have to join forces to understand what's going on and who is the villain behind the develish plan which led Marvel and DC heroes to fight ...

Yep, another crossover comic cliche.



Edited by Frank Robert on 18 March 2010 at 12:19pm
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Frank Robert
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:34am | IP Logged | 6  


 QUOTE:
And the "in my world..." line is pretty lame; the comic seems to be too concerned with outlining why Marvel and DC are distinct. It's like if Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse met in ROGER RABBIT to carefully explain the subtle differences between WB and Disney cartoons.

I think you're reading too much into this.  As I took it, Superman wasn't giving a thesis on the "subtle differences" between the power mechanics of DC heroes and Marvel heroes, he was just talking trash.

It was brought up previously whether DC magic was said to be more powerful than Marvel magic in JLA/Avengers: As I recall, Scarlet Witch said it is.
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Victor Manuel Fernandez Patiño
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 7  

Having two universes full of impossible beings to write about, it sounds a little silly trying to explain "real" universal laws of physics.

I hate when geeks try to hard to show the world that our hobby is not as geeky as the rest world thinks -as if they cared-.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 8  

 Frank wrote:
It was brought up previously whether DC magic was said to be more powerful than Marvel magic in JLA/Avengers: As I recall, Scarlet Witch said it is.

Isn't that a rather concrete example?
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Frank Robert
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 9  

No.  She said DC magic is stronger than Marvel magic, not that DC magicians are stronger than Marvel magicians when they're in DC simply because they're in DC or that they're weaker in Marvel just by being in Marvel.

Like I said, it was only the Flash who experienced power loss during the crossover, and that's only because there's no Speed Force on Marvel Earth.


Edited by Frank Robert on 18 March 2010 at 12:34pm
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 10  

 Frank wrote:
No.  She said DC magic is stronger than Marvel magic, not that DC magicians are stronger than Marvel magicians when they're in DC simply because they're in DC or that they're weaker in Marvel just by being in Marvel.

It's still drawing attention to the idea of split universes.
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Frank Robert
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 11  

I don't what to say at this point.  Busiek didn't write that DC heroes are more powerful when they're in DC or that Marvel heroes are more powerful when they're in Marvel.

Incidentally, Superman defeats Thor in the Savage Land, which is on Marvel Earth, not DC Earth.  It's right there on the two teams' stand-off double splash.  More information here.


Edited by Frank Robert on 18 March 2010 at 12:43pm
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Jason Fliegel
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Posted: 18 March 2010 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 12  

If John Byrne wants to write a good story that ignores the whole "two Earths" nonsense and simply treats the heroes as if they had always been on the same Earth, and simply had not met before, I'm OK with that (and, IMO he has done so with Batman/Captain America, to pick one example). 

If Kurt Busiek wants to write a good story that does NOT ignore the whole "two Earths" nonsense, I'm OK with that, too (and, again IMO, he has done so with Avengers/JLA).

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