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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133266
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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Donald Miller is dead on target. One of my teachers in Art College said that perhaps the most important lesson a young artist can learn is knowing when to stop. The precise context is slightly different, but it is way beyond obvious that very few people at Marvel (and DC) ever learned that lesson. A significant portion of the problem, of course, lies in how many of those people are committed to tooting their own horns as loudly as possible, instead of looking to the future health of the characters.
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Jeremiah Avery Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008 Location: United States Posts: 2431
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 2:47pm | IP Logged | 2
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Plus, with people still buying this material, it just sends a message to the publishers that no matter what they print, despite the complaints, people will still purchase the material, so why change?
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 3
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There is a great difference between having an imagination that can conjure up disturbing imagery...and knowing where it is appropriate to place that imagery... I said nothing about hating Grim and Grittiness...I love it in the appropriate context.
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Don, the context is everything! I really enjoy the Walking Dead. The first time I heard of Marvel Zombies it made me sick, though. NOT the context for those characters to be in! Similarly, I enjoy the FF analogues as villains angle in Planetary. There's just the thing though - analogues! When Reed in the Marvel U proper is responsible for cloning a robot Thor that kills a fellow superhero... that's NOT the context for those characters to be in!
I am shocked that people don't know the difference.
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William Lukash Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1405
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 6:20pm | IP Logged | 4
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Somebody should send a complimentary copy of that Ultimatum comic to The Powers That Be at Disney.
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Bobby Beem Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2009 Posts: 161
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 5
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There is a great difference between having an imagination that can conjure up disturbing imagery...and knowing where it is appropriate to place that imagery... I said nothing about hating Grim and Grittiness...I love it in the appropriate context. Superheroes that have an established history of heroism and youth friendliness is not the appropriate context.
Way to miss the point! ************************************************************ *** Maybe you're missing my point. I think you're sort of a creep. I'm not really interested in hearing about teen characters from youth novels performing sex acts for drugs. At least a professional writing about such might have some misguided literary goal in mind, he's not just conjuring up that imagery to impress his online buddies.
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Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4079
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 6
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If Will Eisner were alive to see the atrocities being committed in his name, he would drop dead.
I think "atrocities" is too strong a word for "crummy comic books." Will probably wouldn't have been a big fan of some of the more salacious comics, but I don't think he ever begrudged a guy making a living off of them.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 7:39pm | IP Logged | 7
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The predominance of "crummy comic books" is forcing readers with more ... sane ... sensibilities away. When all that is left of the fan base are those who love to see superheroes fall on their faces, then the genre will truly be dead.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 12 March 2010 at 7:40pm
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Al Cook Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004 Posts: 12736
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 8
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Bobby Beem wrote:
"I think you're sort of a creep." |
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Listen, Bobby, if you think Don Miller is a creep, you really need to hang around here, interact, and get to know people.
Don Miller is about the furthest thing a person can get from being some sort of creep.
And you really, really are missing Don's point. And imagining things that he didn't even say. Kinda makes me wonder what you're really trying to get at here, that you have manufacture crap like that. You can make your point without that, I'm sure.
Edited by Al Cook on 12 March 2010 at 7:47pm
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2213
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 9
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"So you are saying the same thing I did...Your kid gets an allowance and chooses to spend it (I agree very clever) wisely on more value for his money...This does not dispel the fact that his age group has disposable income, just proves that the comic indusstry is not interested in that age group. which is foolish. The comic readership used to be around 9-14 after which most kids either moved on to other media, or stayed fans and accepted that they were kid things...(not that they can't be more as a medium, but I am talking big two superhero books here) "I don't think we are quite on the same page. Yes, 9 to 14 has some disposable income, but they don't have nearly the disposable income of the 16 to 24 year old age group. This is the group that has expenses paid and begining to work. But, they aren't generally "working for a living". This is the group that defines much of the change that happens in any media. They have the money to piss away and the desire to explore. They thrill on finding something new and staking claim. Frankly, from a business sense, it is what the comic companies should do and who they should go after. It is the market that is growing. As generations go, the Boomers far outnumbered Generation X. But it is the Millennials that are far outnumbering both groups. We still have a handful of years that they are in this buying market and the next generational group dominates the market and we have our next major swing. _________________________________ The problem with the companies (specifically the Big 2) aiming their superhero comics at the 16 to 24 age group is that most people in that age group don't have any interest in reading, much less spending their money, on superheroes comics. Remember, the over whelming majority of current adult superhero comic book readers all started reading superhero comics between the ages of 5 and 14. You have to get the fans young, if you want to keep some of them reading and buying those same superhero comics as older teens and adults.
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Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6832
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 8:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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Don is someone I would NEVER think of as creepy, he is truly a great guy.
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William McCormick Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 February 2006 Posts: 3297
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 8:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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Maybe you're missing my point. I think you're sort of a creep. I'm notreally interested in hearing about teen characters from youth novelsperforming sex acts for drugs. At least a professional writing aboutsuch might have some misguided literary goal in mind, he's not justconjuring up that imagery to impress his online buddies
************** Where the hell did Don say anything remotely like what you wrote above?
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2213
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Posted: 12 March 2010 at 8:27pm | IP Logged | 12
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Plus, with people still buying this material, it just sends a message to the publishers that no matter what they print, despite the complaints, people will still purchase the material, so why change? _________________________________ But not that many people are buying the books. Remember, today's top selling gimmick comic would have been on the cancellation bubble 20 to 30 years ago. The thing is that TPTB at the Big 2 rather try to keep their rapidly shrinking aging readership and appeal to the near mythical brand new older teen and adult reader, instead of trying to appeal to a wide all ages audience made up of mostly new young kid readers.
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