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Jodi Moisan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 6832
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 11:03am | IP Logged | 1
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Joseph in Muncie Indiana at certain times, the ER is the only game in town. We have a doc in the box, but it closes at 6pm.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 11:40am | IP Logged | 2
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given scenario Brad laid out, why would you use the ER? Why not start with your primary care-giver and then, if necessary, get referred out to a better equipped facility?
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Have you ever had a kidney infection or possibly kidney stones? It's the most excruciating pain I'd ever felt. Let's run through YOUR idea of NOT using an ER -
1. Go to my GP or walk-in... and wait for a few hours to be seen while sitting in horrible pain.
2. See GP and get told he can do a blood and urine test, but it takes a few days to get the results back, and that won't tell us necessarily if I have stones lodged in my pipes or not.
3. Get referred to a specialist to make an appointment for a CT scan. Wait a week for said CT scan appointment. In excruciating pain.
OR...
1. Go to ER and sit and wait for 14 hours total, after telling someone from the start what the problem is and being given sweet nourishing pain killers for the wait.
2. Having my blood work taken while I wait, and giving a urine sample while I wait. They go to the lab, in hospital, to get checked while I wait.
3. Go in for a CT scan while I'm there, because there's a radiologist on duty overnight.
4. Walk out of hospital after 14 hours with EVERYTHING done, a dose of antibiotics, painkillers, and a prescription I can get filled first thing in the morning.
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Geoff Gibson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5741
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 11:54am | IP Logged | 3
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Which is why the insurance companies are fighting it so furiously.
You'd think that they'd be all about this bill but fact of the matter is
that the bill is going to regulate the hell out of health insurance. And good, says this guy! I agree in principle but disagree that it will "regulate the hell out of health insurance." I haven't seen that the bill takes away the insurance industry's anti-trust exemption (and let's not restrict it to JUST health insurance but take it away to all lines). The insurance industry in general needs regulation. Of course its important that the regulators, you know, do their job! Included in this legislation should be a complete repeal of the McCarran-Feguson Act.
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Joseph Gauthier
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 March 2009
Posts: 1421
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 4
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It sounds like things work very differently in Canada. You wouldn't have to deal with those protracted waits in the US; in fact, in many cases, depending upon the the number of life-threatening injuries an ER is dealing with, your waiting time would be far less pronounced in an urgent care facility.
This, of course, is not to make a comparative claim against the Canadian system in general, but rather to suggest that you're mistaken in your understanding of the specific workings of the American system because you're attempting to understand it through the context of your understanding of the general workings of the Canadian system.
The two systems, it seems, have evolved differently from one another in their practical applications, because they differ in certain fundamental ways.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:17pm | IP Logged | 5
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Government is BY THE PEOPLE FOR THE PEOPLE. Right?
Private Business is FOR PROFIT.
Why are so many Americans screaming bloody murder at government regulations on healthcare? Why do so many want private companies to decide the fate of their healthcare? In the case of the government, you don't like how things are going you HAVE A VOICE. You can VOTE. You can PROTEST.
In the case of private care, you don't like how things are going you HAVE A CHOICE... to try to find another insurer while you have a now-pre-existing condition that's leaving you with a mountain of debt while you wait to see if you can even get coverage or not. You HAVE A CHOICE whether you want to have a car and a place to live or if you want to get the ankle you twisted looked at because it's turning purple and it's probably broken not sprained.
The U.S. should be ashamed - if the morons in charge were capable of such emotion - to have THAT as a healthcare system. Best doctors in the world, sure - but you've gotta pay big bucks to see them because that's why they're there - to make MONEY.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 6
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It sounds like things work very differently in Canada. You wouldn't have to deal with those protracted waits in the US; in fact, in many cases, depending upon the the number of life-threatening injuries an ER is dealing with, your waiting time would be far less pronounced in an urgent care facility.
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So you're saying being in the ER 14 hours is worse than paying $10k for treatment?
I'll take the 14 hour wait, thanks.
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Jeremiah Avery
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Joined: 27 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 2431
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 7
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Brad, I've had kidney stones and I agree on how excruciating it is! Every second is pure agony. The painkillers definitely are welcomed.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
Official JB Historian
Joined: 18 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10934
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:24pm | IP Logged | 8
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I couldn't agree more, Brad. I think the problem is that a lot of
people either haven't thought it out all the way through or are
sticking too closely to theoretical ideals.But let me address Joseph, who is correct to say that American
urgent care wait time is less. In my experience, that is generally true,
if for no other reason, it closes at a certain hour and they need to see
everyone before that time. The issue there is that when they run out of room time, they send
the overflow to the ED. There's no guessing on your ED wait time - it depends on the
ammount of people waiting and severity of your problem. It could be
instantly or it could be more than 24 hours. Hard to say and various
EDs differ in wait time. But Joseph is correct in that, by and large, urgent care wait time is
less. You are correct that kidney stones should go to the ED for
faster tests and results though.
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Joseph Gauthier
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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So you're saying being in the ER 14 hours is worse than paying $10k for treatment?
No, that's a false choice. What I'm saying is, if I have to get sick, I'm happy to get immediate treatment and walk away two hundred dollars, give or take, richer than I was before I got sick.
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Mike O'Brien
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 12:56pm | IP Logged | 10
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But is it false? We're working with Brad's scenario - if you had no coverage, no insurance, and went to an ED and got all the tests and CT Scan and prescription meds, etc.And let's be clear - in an American ED, you might be out in a few hours, or not. You can't tell. I can honestly say that I've had ED visits that were an hour, tops and some where I was there at least 12 hours, a few times a lot more. Urgent Care is a different story, and cost wise, you presumably have insurance, so you would pay less, but that's not the scenario that Brad set up.
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Joseph Gauthier
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 11
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But the thing is, Brad has insurance too; it's just provided and payed for in a different way.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 15 March 2010 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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I can honestly say that I've had ED visits that were an hour, tops and some where I was there at least 12 hours, a few times a lot more. Urgent Care is a different story, and cost wise, you presumably have insurance, so you would pay less, but that's not the scenario that Brad set up.
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There were more than a dozen Ambulance arrivals at the ER when I was there that night, too - so that factored into the time a great deal (understandably so). Keep in mind though, that 14 hour "wait" was my total time there - tests and everything. Talking to the doctors, etc. Everything.
And we have facilities that seem to match what you're both saying about Urgent Care. The hospital I went to is two blocks away - the Urgent Care facilities where tests and stuff could get done are across the city, or downtown where all the drunks and drug addicts hang out. I didn't want to ride the bus an hour ANYWHERE that day. Also, they close around 5 or 6. I went to the hospital around 1pm, and I hardly think they would have been able to get me in at the Urgent Care facilities that quickly - they probably would have told me to come back the next day at opening.
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