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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 10:39pm | IP Logged | 1  

Mike O'Brian,

Just because someone doesn't titter at the sexual reference like a 15-year-old doesn't mean they don't get it.

You bring up Captain America's checkered past, and let's think about that:

Englehart's Secret Empire storyline at least had the good taste (for lack of a better term) to never show Nixon's face on panel. Honestly, you really had no way of knowing it WAS Nixon until Englehart told you so in an interview years later.

I dropped the Gruenwald run relatively early because his writing left me cold. Sounds like I didn't miss much.

I'm going to ask you to put the shoe on the other foot and given the treatment of Nixon and Reagan see if these would be acceptable storylines for the current administration in a Captain America comic:

Would it be okay with you to show President Obama is a crypto-communist intent on bankrupting the country into ruin?

Or to show him as an Uncle Tom in the thrall of a centuries-old European banker's New World Order conspiracy?

Or as the lynch pin of a radical black supremacist movement that seeks to kill all whites?

Or as the anti-Christ?

Personally, I find those ideas as offensive as making Ronald Reagan one of the lizard people...
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Craig Bogart
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 2  

Nobody show Matt a pic of Lizard-Reagan fighting Cap in his underwear...
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 3  

Brad,

If you check your history, you'll find the 3/5 ths of a person element for slaves in the Constitution was a measure to ultimately END slavery. It's complicated and a couple of quick sentences doesn't do it justice, but to thumbnail: I'm sure you're aware the northern states were against slavery while the southern states supported it. To give the slaves full person status would tilt the electoral balance based on representation by population to ensure that the southern states dominated the new Republic.

Also remember that originally you had to be a land owner to exercise the vote. There were a lot of people disenfranchised: not just slaves and women, but people without property too. (A topic for another thread, but one wonders if we'd be in the same dire economic straits if you had to be a taxpayer in order to have a vote...)

Racism is real. It's not just white on black. There's black on white too. There are leaders in the Black community who hold vast political constituencies based on maintaining the tension of those racial divisions, and have much to lose if we ever bury the hatchet and come together as a nation.

We're both Canadians: Think about the Quebec question. Think about how those tensions have been exacerbated over the decades and never really healed. The Plains of Abraham dates back to the era of the American slave trade, so that's a 250 year wound too.

So, when we get our next Quebecer Prime Minister: do you think it fair to finger anyone who disagrees with his policies as an anti-French racist? And how does that help foster honest debate?

Different flavours of arsenic, but they poison the well just the same.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 11 February 2010 at 11:37pm
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 11:08pm | IP Logged | 4  

Craig,

Is Cap in his underwear?! Or is it Lizard-Reagan?

(Come to think of it, a Lizard-Reagan would make Arms for Hostages a little more believable...)
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Paul Greer
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Posted: 11 February 2010 at 11:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

If you check your history, you'll find the 3/5 ths of a person element for slaves in the Constitution was a measure to ultimately END slavery.
*****************

How did this cause the end of slavery? Your explaination touched briefly on why there was a 3/5th compromise. Not any new info in regards to that. But nothing on how this caused slavery to end. Or that those involved in it had any intention of ending slavery. Madison was looking for a way to get the south to ratify the Constitution. This was the compromise to get it done.

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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 12:12am | IP Logged | 6  

Matthew McCallum:

YOU may have gotten the reference but the people that responded to Brian did not.

There is no attempt at mind-reading on my part - I specfically refer to Brian kind of wittily dropping a reference to tea-bagging and people in this thread responding to him thinking he was referring to something else.

Next:  The Secret Empire did not show Nixon's face on panel, however, it featured the leader of the empire occupying the Oval Office and when he was revealed, Cap was so shocked that his faith in America was shaken.  Who then are we supposed to think the leader was?  The White House Janitor?

Finally:  How would I feel if a Cap comic showed Obama as a Nazi or whatever example you used? 

Let's be REAL clear here - because this is where you missed my point:  I would not care for that because it would be OUT OF CHARACTER for the comic, which has long established roots as a book that only takes pokes at Republican Presidents.

That's how I'd feel and that's why I brought the point up.

There's a lot of crying and teeth gnashing about this, and frankly, it's not only nothing new, I'd go so far as to call it in character for the book.  What's more, it's a gross over-simplification and misunderstanding (on purpose or not; hard to tell with Republican Press Releases, frankly) to state that this story or any criticism of Tea-Baggers or other fringe lunatics is automatically "playing the race card"  As has been noted MANY times in this thread, the signs in the comic were based on real signs that tea-baggers carry when they're getting worked into a santorum, and frankly, there are much worse, much more sickening examples out there.

Google is your friend.

Not all tea-baggers are racist - no one says that.  No one believes that. The only place you hear that kind of talk is when the right wing corporate whore media is crying about their corporate sponsored events being criticized.  

Republicans are good at one thing - playing the victim card.

So, no.  No one is saying all tea-baggers are racist.  I, however, am saying that the tea-bagger movement is just the same old same old politics, and the participants either know the game they're playing or are dupes in the game. 

Awesome Irony Moment?  That's what the first "Tea Party" was, too!  That, too, wasn't honest citizens rising up against oppression, but rather the eliete business class convincing some drunken saps to do their dirty work for them to save them the burden of taxation.  Just like what's going on now. 

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Joseph Gauthier
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 12:16am | IP Logged | 7  

Have you been to a tea pary, Lee?  Have you spoken to the people involved, asked them about their concerns?  I imagine if you want some light shed on any inacuracies, a real live, actual tea party would be a good place to start.

Just click here and scroll down to find a group near you:

http://teapartypatriots.org/

Please get back to us, and let us know what you find.

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 1:03am | IP Logged | 8  

I'm sorry, but when you have 8 years of a (white) blundering, inept Republican president who needlessly went back to war with Iraq (at considerable cost), alienated the rest of the world and handed out economic favors to his big business friends, it seems a bit strange that when a capable, intelligent (black) Democrat steps in to try his best to limit the extent of the crisis that started under the last guy's watch, and even gives out tax cuts in the middle of this to 95 percent of american families, he's the one who gets the protests.

A white guy fucks it up and nobody says a word throughout it all, then a black guy comes in and does a decent job of fixing it and there's  a mass movement practically shouting for him to be impeached for ruining their country.

I'm sorry, but even if we dismiss any association the Tea Party Peaople as such may have had with explicitly racist or offensive outbursts or placards at rallies, I think that the very fact that Obama is black has significantly lowered the threshold for protests against him, both from the Tea Party and Birthers (which we may treat as separate groups, though it is my impression that there are some significant overlaps).

I seriously think that no white president would be afforded this little respect, this little trust and with no white president would his actual accomplishments and policies have been ignored to such an extent by even his most vocal opponents.

White presidents get treated like The Boss. It may be a Boss you hate, but you still treat him like a Boss.  Obama gets treated like he's a servant or a janitor or some mid-level flunky.

I'm just waiting for people to start calling him George.

(edited for punctuation and emphasis)



Edited by Knut Robert Knutsen on 12 February 2010 at 1:04am
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 1:46am | IP Logged | 9  

Mike,

The Secret Empire did not show Nixon's face on panel, however, it featured the leader of the empire occupying the Oval Office and when he was revealed, Cap was so shocked that his faith in America was shaken. Who then are we supposed to think the leader was? The White House Janitor?

Come on, Mike. Did anyone have faith in Richard Nixon by that point, apart from a handful of Republicans? Use your imagination: maybe it was Henry Kissinger. Gerald Ford. Al Haig. It didn't HAVE to be Richard Nixon, easy target that he was. Heck, it would be MUCH more shocking if it had been Carl Albert! Now THAT would cause a man to lose faith in the country.

Let's be REAL clear here - because this is where you missed my point:  I would not care for that because it would be OUT OF CHARACTER for the comic, which has long established roots as a book that only takes pokes at Republican Presidents.

You have no idea how much I wish you were joking. Yeah, I'm certain Cap would have gotten around to slamming Eisenhower if he'd lasted more than six issues in the 1950s...

You evidently missed my post from the first page about the title being written by litany young leftists with a political ax to grind. That, unfortunately, seems to be a long-established tradition in the title too.

Not all tea-baggers are racist...

Obviously. BUT the prevailing attitude is that it HAS to be at heart a racist movement because we now have a black president, and people didn't take to the streets about their taxes for the last guy.

It can't be, perhaps, because a bunch of people got onboard the hope and change express believing things might be different this time, only to find that it was just more politics as usual. It can't be that they were disappointed to learn they elected one more big government dedicated to friends and cronies. It can't be that the promise people making under $250,000 a year wouldn't see one more dime added to their taxes proved to be little more than empty words. It can't be that trillions of dollars went out the door at startling speed.

No, it cannot be ANY of that, because we have an administration convinced that their policies are completely sound, and it's only because the people just don't understand. The Tea Party movement, they must be an army of idiots, whipped in a frenzy to hate the black man. There is just no REASON to their grievance.

Mike, these are challenging times. I'm a Canadian, living in the United States of America. As a resident alien, I cannot vote. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I like to think I'm informed. I work for a municipal government in California, a city of 100,000 people. I'm the budget guy. I've spent the last 20 months straight during this economic crisis, working the numbers, trying to find ways to keep the lights on and people employed. We've cut 15 million from our General Fund, down from a high of $80 million to $65 million. We're now loping another $5 million out of the total. It's grim. We've trimmed to the bone and sucked out the marrow. It's down to people going out the door unless the unions are willing to make concessions. And, sadly, I don't think we've seen the worst.

There is an effort on the part of a lot of people to reduce the Tea Party movement to a simple left-right debate, or an anti-black dynamic, to marginalize them. I think that's misreading the situation. There is a tremendous amount of frustration and anger and fear out there. We're witnessing the start of the war between the rate-payers versus the rate-takers, and this is uncharted ground.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 2:20am | IP Logged | 10  

Paul,

I'm sorry for the slow reply. I've typed this note thrice, losing it two times before because I Googled just one more piece of data and didn't flip to a different tab. (At least my touch typing is getting a work out.) Alas, this version is perhaps better refined, but likely nowhere near as good as my previous efforts.

When I wrote "It's complicated and a couple of quick sentences doesn't do it justice" I didn't want to hijack the thread with a long post on the subject. After all, I wouldn't have suggested that Brad should check his history if I was going to lay it all out for him. But because you've asked, I'll provide more detail on this issue. But please, keep in mind I don't want to draft a thesis and we're still dealing with a quick sketch.

First, a little contextual background.

The American Revolution was a defining moment in the slavery issue. A number of the Founding Fathers like Benjamin Franklin had long belonged to anti-slavery movements, but their efforts had been thwarted or reversed by the Crown. They saw independence as a opportunity to resolve this issue.

In the original draft of the Declaration of Independence, Thomas Jefferson wrote a clause detailing that the separation from Britain was necessary to end the evil of slavery. The clause was struck from the final draft due to objections from the southern delegates. (And yes, I'm aware the TJ held slaves. He was a complicated man. Perhaps the clause was pushed on him by Franklin and he wasn't unhappy to cross it out. Perhaps deep down inside he knew that all men are created free and equal.)

Following independence, a number of Founding Fathers who held slaves (like George Washington) released them. Additionally, due in part to the efforts of the Founders and the anti-slave societies to which they belonged, a number of states abolished slavery In 1780, Massachusetts and Pennsylvania. In 1784, Connecticut and Rhode Island. In 1792, New Hampshire. In 1793, Vermont. In 1799 New York. In 1804, New Jersey. Further, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa all prohibited slavery when they were added to the Union was a Federal Act authored by Constitutional Convention Signatory and NY Senator Rufus King, and signed into law by President Washington.

"Okay," you're saying at this point, "What's all this got to do with the 3/5 ths clause?"

The record of the Constitutional Convention makes clear the 3/5 ths clause was an anti-slavery provision. Slavery's opponents succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing only 3/5 ths of their slave population to be counted in determining the distribution of congressional representation.

Remember, the 3/5 ths provision applied only to SLAVES, not FREE blacks who lived in the North or the South.

Thus, the 3/5 ths clause was NOT a measurement of human worth, but an effort to reduce the number of pro-slavery proponents seated in Congress. With slaves counted at a lesser rate, the South had fewer seats in Congress and thus there were fewer pro-slavery votes to thwart and/or overturn legislation like the Rufus King Act.

And keep in mind that since the vote was given only to land owners, there were a number of people disenfranchised: slaves, women and those without property. One wonders if we would be in sure dire economic straits if the vote was still restricted to property owners...

Again, this is a rather reduced version of a complicated issue, and you've caused me to access brain cells that haven't rubbed together in the 25 years since I got my degree. While obviously a version in shorthand, I hope that I've done it justice.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 12 February 2010 at 2:41am
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 2:33am | IP Logged | 11  

Knut,

I don't know if you follow US politics in depth or not, but following the State of the Union, MSNBC commentator Chris Matthews (a good liberal and former staffer for the long-time Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill) praised Obama -- I repeat, "praised Obama" -- by saying "I forgot Obama was black for an hour."

My jaw dropped at that one. I'm still stunned. I cannot imagine any thinking person articulating that.

Regardless of what you may think of the man, you're still obligated to respect the Office of the President. Nixon may be a crook, Ford may be a clumsy oaf, Carter may be a fool, Reagan may be a trigger-happy warmonger, Bush may be a technocrat, Clinton may be a womanizer, Bush Jr. may be another fool, Obama may be... well, it's early days, who knows what he may be? Nevertheless, you respect the Office of the President.

Can you imagine the outcry if Hillary Clinton was President, and someone said in an effort to praise her "I forgot Hillary was a woman for an hour"? Can you imagine the outcry if a right-winger had made EITHER of those statements about Mr. Obama or Mrs. Clinton, regardless of whether they were intended as praise?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 4:07am | IP Logged | 12  

Oh, I agree, it's not just his political opponents who seem to have a hard time getting over the fact that Obama is black, and thus might respond to him in ways where they subconciously treat him with less respect than if he was white.

Let me be clear, I don't think it's some form of conscious, Ku-KLux-Klan level virulent racism at work with the bulk of the Tea Party Movement. I do, however, think that on some level people across the political spectrum respond differently, with more unfounded skepticism and distrust of his intellect, his morals, his insight and his motives because they are somehow alienated or made uncomfortable by him being "different" in such an obvious way.

And I don't think people are necessarily aware of this "unfair response", and it is a difficult thing to acknowledge, if true. That subconciously  they're not giving this president the benefit of the doubt because they're scared of the black man.

A lot of people were made uncomfortable by JFK running for president, and that was just for being a catholic.

I know we're supposed to think of this as a "post racial" era, but we have to allow for the possibility that racial differences still make people very uncomfortable in ways they don't understand and acknowledge, even those who voted for Obama and who wouldn't think of themselves as racist in any way.

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