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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jeff Gillmer
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 1  

"And before someone pops in and says I am against free speech, I am for free speech. But ..."

As soon as that "But" got added, you negated the entire second sentence.

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Al Cook
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 2  

No, she didn't.  She qualified the next sentence.
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Al Cook
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 3  

However, since her statement that she is for free speech was in the first sentence of the two, then even by your take on things at least that still stands.

Hooray Jodi!  I am for free speech too!
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Kevin Hagerman
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 4  

Freedom of speech means even the most loathsome forms of expression you can imagine; i.e. anything Glenn Beck says.

You don't fight bad ideas by shutting them up.  You shut them up by pointing out they're bad ideas.

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Donald Miller
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 10:54am | IP Logged | 5  

Loathsome ideas are protected...calls to arms and incitement to harm are not protected speech.

D-
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 6  

Freedom of speech -- and by extension freedom of self-expression -- is not necessarily freedom from consequences nor a license to act irresponsibly.

And I would further draw a distinction between words and self-expressions that result in harm and injury versus those words and self-expressions that are merely offensive to the sensibilities.

It's not only shouting "fire" in a crowded room without cause and endangering lives and creating mayhem. I think of Nancy Grace a couple of years ago who bullied that guest on her program and the woman subsequently committed suicide. And those various ambush talk shows that have lead to violence and murder by shamed and humiliated guests. Are those media personalities and programs to blame? The law says no, but we can certainly agree they didn't help.

When Oliver Wendell Holmes opined "The right to swing my fist ends where the other man's nose begins" I've always felt that a good measure for verbal fists as well.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 7  

Knut,

After many years of being involved in politics I've observed there really are only two types of candidates: those who are on a mission, and those who want to be somebody. Alas, at the moment, we have a tremendous imbalance of the latter.

Washington, it has been said, is Hollywood for ugly people, and a lot of those ugly people having supped of the jelly royale are loathe to go back to the real world. That's why we have all this out of control spending by politicians, regardless of whether they are Republicans or Democrats. We the people are happily willing to be bribed by our own money come election time (or worse, by money we don't have). And since there are no immediate consequences for such behaviour -- rather, there are immediate rewards in the form of re-election -- the spending madness continues.

We are the proverbial partiers on the Titanic, picking up pieces of ice from the deck and dropping them into our drinks, laughing and singing and dancing blissfully unaware if the dangerous waters in which we float or the damage already done to the ship.. If only life came with a John Williams or John Barry soundtrack that could warn us of the impending doom...

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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 12:09am | IP Logged | 8  

I guess I'm just so used to the parliamentary system, where the focus is on getting the ministerial posts and the committee chairs.  Back-benchers are pretty much anonymous and we have electoral districts with several seats, and an apportioning system, so it's sort of a mix between party selection and voting on individuals.

What this means is that you have to be able to get through a few bare-knuckle backroom fights just to get in, usually. Although there are what we call "broilers",  young professionally trained politicians with no work- or life-experience outside of politics, who are groomed upwards in the system, inside the system, usually because they started working for one of the senior party members in their parliamentary office or department.

What we often find is that the people who came in with work-experience and local government experience, are the ones with the spine to get things done, whereas the "broilers" are the ones who will do just about anything to stay in.

I remember there was one politician (now retired to the pivate sector as a lobbyist, mainly because there was only one way left to go and he was not going to be a popular choice as Prime Minister)  named Hansen who was asked once about how he balanced his work life and home life. His answer? He didn't. As he told the reporter, when he chose to pursue a high office in politics, he knew that it would mean less time with his family, that family life and his relationship with his wife might suffer, and that it would be a challenge and there would be a lot of small sacrifices. But he wanted power, so he accepted the trade-off.

And this was something like 6-8 years before he retired. He just figured: "Why lie?". Everyone knows it's a trade-off and that the power and influence of that position is what makes people want it.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 4:07am | IP Logged | 9  

Knut,

I hear you, my friend. Being originally from Canada, I'm pretty familiar with the parliamentary system, too, and having lived next to (and now within) the United States I'm familiar with the republican separation of powers system. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but the common denominator is the rise of the professional politician.

Perhaps the major problem plaguing the US system is incumbency. Not that incumbency is wrong per se, but lobbyists prefer to keep the same crowd around and will heavily fund incumbents regardless of party. And committee assignments are awarded on seniority rather than merit, so the focus becomes trying to stay in office long enough until you finally get the plum.

Thus, you have candidates whom as soon as they are elected begin fundraising for the next campaign. For example, the average congressional campaign is just a shade under $2 million dollars, so if you divide that by the 730 days of a two year term, that means you need to raise an average of $2,739.73 every day. An average of just over $19,000 a week, every week. While, of course, tending to your responsibilities in office. It creates a dynamic where lobbyists are more than willing to help incumbents with this fundraising problem in the -- shall we be charitable and say "hope"? -- that some attention might get paid to their issues.

Then, due to games that are played with redistricting, there are numerous congressional and state assembly seats that virtually safe for Republicans or Democrats. Without an epic sea change caused by outside events -- like the 1974 Watergate Congress or the 1994 Republican Revolution -- once you get elected in one of these seats you are virtually assured re-election for as long as you'd like.

A number of people support term limits to solve these problems, but it really isn't much of a solution. In California, where we have them, all it amounts to is shuffling the deck of the same 52 cards, with termed-out members of the State Assembly swapping spots with termed-out members of the State Senate, or taking a breather at the local level for a term before heading back to the Statehouse. And again, redistricting in California virtually assures a Democratic majority, so any new blood that gets brought into the system through term-limits essentially remains in proportion to the previous Assembly. With strict party discipline, little changes. (And let me state things would be no better if there was a permanent Republican majority.)

Frankly, I've never been a fan of term limits because we have a perfectly fine mechanism to limit terms called "elections". I'd rather put more energy into making elections more competitive.  For example, a study I read about five years ago reported that virtually half the House of Representative elections are essentially uncontested, either because the candidate runs unopposed by one or the other of the major parties, or the opposition is dramatically underfunded, with ratios like 20 to 1 against. I doubt the landscape has changed all that much in the interim, and really, we shouldn't find this surprising news. The major parties are going to put their resources into districts they think they can win, and a gerrymandered seat with a well-funded incumbent is a poor bet to challenge. So they don't.

A long time ago, when I left playing court of politics to become a "referee" with the City of Edmonton's Office of the City Clerk (which oversaw municipal elections), I had what probably still remains my most satisfying moment of public service because I corrected a major injustice. The councillors for the City of Edmonton were elected by wards, and they were responsible for adopting their own ward boundaries. You had -- literally, I kid you not because I witnessed it firsthand -- incumbents who would ask for the line to be drawn down this street or that alleyway, or to hiccup here and there because "I know those people will vote for me." And that line would be approved because the other councillors got similar accommodations. That was wrong.

So I drafted a Ward Boundary Design Policy that established rules and methodologies for drawing the lines, with elements such as keeping neighborhoods and communities of interest together, spacial compactness, maintaining narrow range of variance between the wards in terms of population and electors, seeking public review, and other metrics. And, much to my satisfaction, I got it adopted by Council. Since that time, almost 20 years ago, the ward boundaries in Edmonton have been drawn impartially by staff in adherence to the policy directives and without interference from sitting councillors. My small contribution to fairer elections.

Which brings us back to how to make elections fairer and more competitive in the US. We need to ensure that boundaries for electoral districts that are designed impartially. We need campaign finance reform and/or electoral spending limits to level the playing field between candidates. We need to broaden our pool of citizen legislators to attract a greater array of skills and talents. We could use more engineers, scientists, small businessmen, historians, economists, social workers and artists to serve in public office rather than another crop of lawyers. (Nothing against lawyers, just that congress and the statehouses are supersaturated with them.) And, most of all, we need an involved, informed electorate who desires these things be done.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 03 March 2010 at 4:19am
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 03 March 2010 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 10  

Our system is based on plurality districts. These districts (or counties) have jagged borders mostly defined by the landscape, so there are only a few areas where there have been talks of redrawing the county lines.

Our plurality district has 5 representatives (one of whom is selected based on a national overage of votes - one representative for each county is selected this way).

Each party has an open nomination process  and writes up a list of maybe 20 candidates, in order.  All things being equal, the top guy on the list gets the first seat that opens up for the party.  But voters get an option called "strike or cumulate".  It means that while they vote just for the party, they can "strike" a certain number of the candidates off the list (meaning they don't want to give points to these guys) or "cumulate" a guy to give him extra points.  So if 1000 people vote Labor but 100 guys strike the number one guy, he gets 900 points.  And once the position opens up, the guy on the list with the most points gets the first spot.

The party, of course, usually has the option of "pre-cumulating" 2 or 3 candidates.  Meaning that they will get 2000 points for 1000 votes.

But if they get enough people against them, they can still drop several places. At the very least, the number 1 guy might have to trade places with number 3.

That's for the party selection. for the plurality district, there are fixed calculations for how to deal with votes, but basically the party that gets the most votes gets the first seat. Then their tally is multiplied by a number less than 1 (essentially deducting their "spent" votes) and  after that whoever has the most votes gets the second seat. 

After they've gone through this process of vote-elimination, there are always "leftovers".  So when the regular positions are filled, they tally up all the leftover votes of parties that have more than 4% of the votes nationwide (sort of a loony threshold. It's kept the communists out of parliament for a while now.)  and start handing out the last 19 seats (one for each county).

Besides the representatives voted in, there are "substitutes", essentially the next guys on the list, who are called in when the actual representative is sick, absent or is called to a ministerial post.   Now, while any representative once duly elected may choose to leave his party (as some have) without fear of losing his seat (even though it's a "party" seat),  if that "Free-agent" gets sick or is absent for some reason, his substitute is still the next guy on his former party's list.

And while incumbents might have a leg up on nominations for the next run, the system is set up in such a way that there are many ways for the voters to switch thngs around.

It may seem confusing, but we don't really want to go back to the one-man districts. Because they are more arbitrary, they're easier to jerrymander (intentionally or unintentionally). In 1915 (two elections before the introduction of plurality districts), Labor got 32 percent of the votes and 19 seats, while the Liberals (or libertarians) had 33 percent and got 74 seats.  Which  doesn't really seem fair.

The idea of being able to choose "just the guy, not the party" seems nice, but in a sense it's an illusion. The party usually selects the guy anyway. And with the strike and cumulate votes (as well as membership participation in the nomination process) I think the "choice of guy" standard is fully met.

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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 09 March 2010 at 12:00am | IP Logged | 11  

In politics R sometimes does stand for racists.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 09 March 2010 at 1:09am | IP Logged | 12  

Come on, Jodi, don't leave us hanging: What does the "D" stand for?
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