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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 12:22am | IP Logged | 1  

Lee Painter wrote "Read Das Kapital by Karl Marx."

First read that one long, long ago, Lee. Over the years I've read most of what Herr Marx composed, in fact. When your area of scholarship is history, political science and economics (as is mine) it is somewhat necessary to become familiar with his writings.
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 12:35am | IP Logged | 2  

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-february-25-2010/bipar tisan-health-care-reform-summit-2010

Pretty funny
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 12:54am | IP Logged | 3  

That had some very cute moments, Jodi!

And sadly, for the media, it always has to come back to the horse race...
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 4:48am | IP Logged | 4  

Oh gosh, how embarrassing for Jeff!

Let's recap for those following at home:

On Feb 25th, 2010 at 6:32pm, I posted the following:

Anyone follow the Health Care Summit today? [...] One of the parts I caught was on the lunch break - when CSPAN let people call in and chime in - I was happy to hear so many Republicans calling in and reporting how disgusted they were with their party. 

The next morning, on Feb 26th, 2010 at 10:15am, Michael Abbey posted this reply:

Well, if they were Republicans. The Democrats are trying to organizes people to call into talk radio shows to talk up the health care plan. I suppose that these tactics could also be used on CSPAN.

So - let's see what's happened so far:  I noted that an amusing part of the Health Care Summit was how, on CSPAN, self-identified Republican callers were complaining about how their representatives were letting them down.  The callers were giving examples of how they believed in Republican philosophy, were devoted party members, had voted for McCain... and yet, for various detailed and discussed reasons, were bothered by their own parties' actions in obstruction of or in opposition to health care reform. 

Michael Abbey's reply was to question the honesty of the callers, suggesting that they were not, in fact, Republicans.  Mr Abbey noted that the Democrats were rolling out a plan to have people call into radio talk shows to promote the health care plan. 

The implication being that those calling into CSPAN claiming to be Republicans (Abbey: "Well, if they were Republicans") were in fact, not, because of efforts on the part of the Democratic party.

Next, at 1:01 pm, I replied to Michael Abbey with:

Why wasn't I notified of that?  I'm on the mailing lists!

At 3:42pm, in post number 9 of page 15 of the "Quesada apologies for tea bagger depiction in Cap #602" thread, Michael Abbey replied by posting the following link:

http://radio.barackobama.com/

The link is to an Organizing for America page entitled "On the Air", which explains, and I quote:

The fate of health reform has been a focus of debate in living rooms and offices, on TV and online -- and on talk radio. And since millions of folks turn to talk radio as a trusted source of news and opinions, we need to make sure OFA supporters are calling in with a pro-reform message.

The page then details steps to take to accomplish this goal:

1. Listen, Then Call the Show

(Under this point is a refreshable link to a variety of shows, Conservative and Liberal.  Refreshing the link brought up the following shows:

  • The Sean Hannity Show
  • The Alan Colmes Show
  • Focus on the Family
  • Democracy Now!
  • The Dennis Miller Show
  • The Mike Malloy Show
  • The Savage Nation
  • The Thom Hartmann Program
  • The Fred Thompson Show
  • The Ed Schultz Show

This is accompanied by "Calling Tips" which detail calling etiquette for those not familiar with calling radio talk shows.  It is, in total:

  • Be polite, respectful, and clear. Remember, you represent Organizing for America.
  • How radio stations will connect you will depend on the show. Some radio shows may connect you right away, but most will take your name and basic info and put you on hold. You may or may not be able to hear the broadcast on the show while you're waiting. You may hear the radio host say something like, "Hello, we have your name on the line with us."
  • Some hosts may challenge your views. Stay calm and firm. Sharing a personal story about how health reform affects you and your family is a great way to show the importance and urgency of health reform.
  • If you can't get through, don't worry! If the show you call is busy or not accepting calls at the moment you call in, simply click "Give me another show" to find another.)

2. Add Your Voice

(Under this point is a number of "talking points" about the subject, listed completely here:

These points are only to provide extra information and suggestions. Your personal story will make the most compelling message.

  • For most Americans, their health care plan covers too little and costs too much. Far too many people delay or even skip the care they need because they simply can’t afford it.
  • The plan the President laid out includes the largest health care tax cut for middle class families in history and makes coverage more affordable for tens of millions of families and small business owners and expands coverage to over 31 million Americans who are currently uninsured.
  • This plan will give millions of Americans new choices in health insurance by making coverage more affordable, ending the denial of coverage for pre-existing conditions, putting power in the hands of consumers instead of insurance companies and providing one of the largest tax cuts in history while also reducing our national deficit.
  • Reform couldn't be more urgent – just this month consumers in California were told their premiums could go up as much as 39 percent.
  • Too many in Washington are now saying that we should delay or give up on reform entirely, but Americans understand the stakes for our economy and our lives, and we want action. )

3. Report Your Call

(Herein is a form to document how your call went, so, one presumes, the OFA department can calculate how well the campaign is going and how to improve it for future efforts.)

A study of the page reveals no instructions to misrepresent yourself, or your agenda.  In fact, what is stressed on the page is to be honest, respectful and to get out the message about something you believe in.

This is a point that is self-explanatory to anyone who looks at the page.

My reply to the link, two minutes after Michael Abbey posted it at 3:44 pm, was:

So... where does it tell Dems to pass themselves off as Republicans, Michael?

Which was not answered.

Almost 5 (five) hours later, at 8:21 pm, poor Jeff Gilmer, hoping to get a jab in, posts, in answer to my earlier already answered question to Michael Abbey of "Why wasn't I notified of that?  I'm on the mailing lists!"  the same hyperlink, already dismissed, that Michael Abbey posted at 3:42.

One could speculate as to what caused Jeff to post this already discredited attempt at "gotcha":

  • It was a talking point all day on Right Wing Radio, and linked at various right wing websites, such as Michael Savage's blog, the Drudge Report, etc
  • He just carelessly skimmed the page, not reading or comprehending what was on the page.
  • He's kind of like that.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 5  

So, in summation:

In other news - Ah!  Matthew - my BA is in History (with a teaching emphasis) - and in SFSU's History program you need majors and minors - mine were American History, Africa, Modern Europe as well as the standard courses in Geography, Poly Sci, and humanities.  My BA minor was World Religions.  We should have plenty to discuss!

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Brian Miller
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 5:29am | IP Logged | 6  

Damn, Mike. You're up early.
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 7:04am | IP Logged | 7  

Still haven't gone to bed yet!

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Jeff Gillmer
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 8:36am | IP Logged | 8  

Wow Mike, I'm honored you could take so much time to cut-and-paste and do such a reply to my link.  But really, you are reading way too much into my response.  You asked a question (totally in jest, I got that), and I responded much the same way.  Period, end of story.  But, if you feel you got some kind of Epic Win out of it, good for you.  You probably need it more than I do.
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 9  

Jeff , Mike has a very valid point, you bring the same stuff every time, you bring no solutions just resistance. The health care system is broke and we the people are having to make decisions, "Do we go to the doctor or do we eat?" all the while insurance companies get filthy rich. They are unchecked and their greed is showing. This isn't an industry that provides non essential products on the shelves, this is an industry that holds us hostage.

Watching the health care summit did the democrats proud, any person wanting to see what both parties are really like on this issue, need to watch the unedited version on CSPAN ( I think I gave CNN credit before, I meant CSPAN) Boring yep, but that is what government business looks like most of the time, but need to be seen and each individual form an opinion on this very important debate.






Edited by Jodi Moisan on 27 February 2010 at 12:06pm
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Al Cook
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 10  

Points.  They're so easy to dismiss.
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 3:25pm | IP Logged | 11  

Jodi wrote: The health care system is broke and we the people are having to make decisions, "Do we go to the doctor or do we eat?" all the while insurance companies get filthy rich. They are unchecked and their greed is showing. This isn't an industry that provides non essential products on the shelves, this is an industry that holds us hostage.

This is a claim we hear all the time, Jodi. But do you know what the profit margin is for those health insurance companies that you claim are filthy rich, unchecked and greedy? The pure health insurance companies -- Aetna, United Healthcare, Humana, and Cigna -- had net profits in 2008 of 4.4%, 3.6%, 2.6% and 2.3% respectively. Those are pretty slim margins. I'll see if I can find 2009 data, but the current margins should still be pretty close. (Using data from the other companies that provide healthcare insurance is trickier because you have to abstract their more profitable life insurance products out of the mix.)

Living the first 30 years of my life in a country with socialized medicine (Canada), I'm well acquainted with what we have to expect with government-run healthcare and the single-payer system in the absence of market forces.

The medical transaction is between a doctor and patient. With an employer pay system (i.e. you have health insurance coverage through work) the financial transactions are now between employer and the insurance company, and then the insurance company and the medical provider. After you pay your deductible, everything is "free" and there is no incentive for the consumer to use health care resources wisely.

A good analogy is to compare healthcare insurance to auto insurance (which in most states is mandatory), but we need to add a little bit to the auto insurance package to be apples-to-apples. So, let's assume that after you cover your annual deductible that your auto insurance pays for any vehicle repairs: oil changes, new tires, windshield wipers, in short all the costs of servicing and maintaining your vehicle save gasoline (which I would equate to food for the car). Further, let's assume that your auto insurance is provided by your employer, so there is no out-of-pocket costs beyond that annual deductible. In that scenario, beyond buying cheap gas (food), what incentive do you have to drive your vehicle in a cost effective manner? I say "none." The financial incentive for good behaviour is removed from the consumer by a third party payer.

Moreover, let's think about the cheap gas (food) for a moment. Cheap gas may harm all the other systems in your car. It may lead to greater wear and tear on your vehicle, cause functions to run less efficiently, lead parts to wear out sooner and need replacement more frequently. But, since you don't have to PAY for any of those elements because they are covered by insurance, what incentive do you have to fill-up with high-test at the pump? Again, none.

Now, we know that the insurance companies will restrict the reimbursement for the cost of services provided in the marketplace to control costs. Every dealer would get the same compensation for an oil change or a tire rotation. And, if the insurance companies had it within their power to mandate that you only use high test gasoline when filling up your vehicle because it would help lower their downstream costs, they most certainly would. They're footing the bill, after all, and it's good for business.

And thus, leaving our analogy, we come to the heart of the government-run healthcare challenge: the demand side versus the supply side. When a service is "free" -- in this context, "free" means not immediately out of pocket to the user and instead a shared cost distributed across the population -- it is very difficult to quell the demand side. (The Alberta government ran an ad campaign in the 1990s about visiting your doctor less to save government healthcare expenses. Visits actually increased during the campaign.) Instead, you control costs on the supply side (as Canada does by restricting doctor reimbursements and rationing services so there are waiting lists for non-critical procedures). And you introduce laws in an effort to steer people to change their behaviours so they become more cost effective.

Healthcare in this country is far from broken, and the things that threaten to break it -- specifically, a rapidly aging population that will demand more services -- aren't going to be solved by the government providing universal coverage to x number of uninsured residents, most of whom are young, healthy and could afford healthcare insurance but choose not to purchase it.

Our choice is not the House/Senate bills or nothing. We are not going over the cliff and we have to turn the wheel NOW. Both the Democrats and Republicans are playing politics. (We should be surprised?) We could instead have a series of bills. Enact the changes that both parties agree on today. Get the fixes started today. Work on building consensus on the more challenging points and pass them tomorrow. Or, since the Democrats control the Legislative and the Executive, they could move forward with their bill if truly believe in it and suffer the consequences (if any) next fall. What's more important: acting on your principles or re-election?

Instead, we watch them play the Poisoned Coke game:

"Drink the Coke."

"I don't want to. I think there's poison in it. Can I have a new glass?"

"You don't like Coke?"

"I do like Coke, but I don't want to drink one with poison in it. I'd like a new glass, please."

"A lot of people wish they had a Coke."

"Fresh Coke, yes. I don't think they should have a poisoned one. Like this one..."

"You're upsetting a lot of people who work at Coke bottling plants all across this country by snubbing that Coke. Good, hard working people who make Coke."

"I have nothing against Coke or the people who make Coke. Just don't want to drink one with poison in it."

"Look, if you're that concerned, how about we filter that Coke for you?"

"Um, I think the poison is pretty well diffused by now. I don't know if a filter would be all that effective in getting rid of the poison. Can't we just pour a new glass?"

"Boy, you're difficult. Okay, tell you what, come over to my place with your friends and tell me and my friends about your problem with the Coke. Then, after we're all done talking, you can drink the Coke."

"You don't seem to understand. P-O-I-S-O-N. I don't want to drink poison. Love Coke, don't like poison. Why don't we open that brand new bottle over there and pour out a fresh glass?"

"There you have it, ladies and gentlemen. My friend here doesn't like Coke and refuses all my reasonable efforts to change his mind. He obviously hates Coke, hates everyone who bottles Coke, and hates anyone who wishes they had a Coke."


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 27 February 2010 at 4:04pm
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Mike O'Brien
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Posted: 27 February 2010 at 4:02pm | IP Logged | 12  

I'd be pretty interested in seeing those sources, Matthew - You noted before that you or your wife work in Health Care - so do I.

My understanding of the profit margin for insurance companies - just based on what I know from my day to day interactions at work - is that they have a much higher profit margin than what you're talking about - and that it's Medicare and Medicaid that have the smaller margins that you're talking about.

But, I'm no economist - and I know numbers can be made to tell whatever story they want...

But also, a simple google search turned up things like this story:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/health-insurers-post -record-profits/story?id=9818699

wherein, they say Cigna, one of the companies you mentioned, had profit increasing 346 percent.  Which... like... I guess could still work with your numbers.  If they made like .000007% profit before, or something.

But anyway - I'll let you provide the numbers and educate us on this one.  Again - I'm not an economist.  My work in hospitals has to do with teaching doctors to use EMRs. 

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