The right loves to talk about taxes being raised.  I say each time any of you tries to play that card, I want to see concrete hard evidence that your FEDERAL tax went up.  FEDERAL.  Not state or local or municipal, the FEDERAL - the Obama tax.

Mike:

You're right that Obama has not raised taxes (at least to my knowledge).  But he has advocated for allowing the Bush cuts to expire (which would not be felt until next year) which would be a de facto tax increase for many americans (I seem to recall his tax proposals included keeping or reinstating cuts for some of the lower income beneficiaries of the Bush cuts).  I think that anytime a tax increase is effected it is a fair concern (in point of fact if the Bush cuts expire it would, for example, affect me).  I think its fair to be concerned about defecits; I think its fair to question how the government spends money.  I have no issues with any citzens doing that -- but I can understand and somewhat agree that some of recent critcism seem . . . opportunistic.  I agree that critcism of Obama for spending when there was silence over the last eight years seems more than a little politically motivated. (I also think motivation for some is race based too but I do not think its fair to paint all such critics that way.  The ones who are racist tend to expose themselves as such when they speak.)

As for the whackadoodle in the plane -- I don't think he was a left wing or right wing -- I think he was just a rambling nut.  Instead of using his nutiness as a basis for attacking one another I think he's better used as an example of how passions, on any side, taken to an extreme can be deadly. (And I think you were a little harsh on ol' Kevin; he may have disappointed you but "disgust"?  Really?)  

As for the media there is liberal and conservative media, and there are fair and unfair people in both.  It seems, sadly, there is no OBJECTIVE media.

And Mike, when reading over the "manifesto" Stack left behind, I was struck by the following,
"…the joke we call the American medical system, including the drug and insurance companies, are murdering tens of thousands of people a year and stealing from the corpses and victims they cripple, and this country’s leaders don’t see this as important as bailing out a few of their vile, rich cronies…"
For a second I was worried that you Mike were using a fake name here and had just flown a plane into a building.  Glad to see it wasn't you though.  We may not agree on much politically, but I would miss you if you weren't here.

***

LOL!

Geoff:

But that's my point - to date, Obama has not raised federal income taxes.  And yet that was the drumbeat since early 2008 not because it's based in any truth but rather because it's a good scary talking point. 

So all this talk - this fury - this anger - people freaking out and now flying airplanes into buildings - and OBAMA HASN'T RAISED TAXES. 

It. Is. A. Lie.

That is being repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

And here's why I'm disgusted at Kevin and others on this thread who should know better  - we're so busy trying to be "fair" and "objective" and "see both sides" and we're nipping and criticizing good people while ignoring the bigger picture.  We can nit and pick about Obama this and Obama that and what is the other side doing?  They're screaming from every source of media that OBAMA EATS BABIES and KILLS GRANDMA and WILL DATE YOUR SISTER and whatever other foul lies they pull out of their asses and we're busy going "ho hum, Obama's efforts are good, but could be better"

There is no discussion, there is no debate.  There is corporate interests spreading vile lies and propaganda that is not checked, but is repeated by terrified peasants while people who know better gaze at their navels.

You know why I'm disgusted at Kevin?  Because he should know better.  Same for you, Jodi, William, etc.  The rest of the rabble here?  I expect nothing from them and my expectations are always met.

You know why I'm disgusted at Kevin?  Because he should know better.  Same for you, Jodi, William, etc.  The rest of the rabble here?  I expect nothing from them and my expectations are always met.

Mike:

You can be disappointed  or disgusted with us all you want but come on man!  Did you read his manifesto?  This motherfucker was a loon! You're looking for red or blue -- this cat was plaid.  He hated everything: the government, the Church, the Pentavirate (which makes sense since he hates the Church), the Illuminati, the Avengers (both the Superhero team and the British spies), Paul Simon (but not Art Garfunkel), the Jedi, Congress, the Hague Convention, illegal immigrants, Canadian bacon, egg beaters, LOL Cats and the entire offensive line of the 1983 Washington Redskins.  He was nuts! 

This was not a red state-blue state thing.  It was a crazy thing,

I am all for free speech but what I am not for, is encouraging and promoting violence. 

I'm not for encouraging or promoting violence either. And thus, I trust, in the past you have posted examples of and been equally offended by some of the violence-inspiring signage that was displayed at anti-Bush anti-war rallies. And you have been equally disgusted by the hateful signage displayed and the actual violence that has broken out at the recent G8 and WTO summits.

But you on the right burying your head in the sand all you want , if the fox promoted anti govt rhetoric continues, bad things will continue to happen.

I can assure you my head isn't buried nor are my glasses rose-coloured. Neither do I look at the world through a distorted mirror. Which leads me to ask: Just what are the bad things to which you refer?

Was the bad thing Mr. Stack flying his airplane into the IRS building in Austin? I don't recall reading anything about Mr. Stack's television viewing habits in his lengthy manifesto, and Lord knows he took time to painstakingly detail everything else. Are you not jumping to a conclusion that he is automatically a Fox News-watching anti-tax disgruntled right-wing nut? The man thought the IRS personally destroyed him, wrote tax code directed at HIM. That's a bit different from feeling the government is dipping its hand a little too deeply into your pocket. Consider what else we know about this man: Stack played in a band, so we know he liked music. Perhaps he listened to hard rock or heavy metal. Perhaps he's yet one more heavy metal suicide. (That tenuous conclusion is based on as equally scant evidence as yours.) In any case, Mr. Stack didn't need Fox News to gin up his hatred; the IRS did a good enough job on its own. And I'm certain I'd have seen a clip on YouTube if Glenn Beck had recommended an appropriate way to get the government's attention was to fly your plane into one of their buildings.

Was the bad thing Professor Amy Bishop shooting three of her colleagues? In everything that's been reported about Ms. Bishop, I see nothing to suggest she was a loyal Fox News viewer, and the denial of tenure does not seem to be a high priority for the Tea Party Movement. There's been much hay made out of her fixation on President Obama, but I don't think we should take that to mean all, many or even a significant some of President Obama's supporters are a half-bubble off level. Again, Fox News does not appear to have been whispering in her ear at night "kill kill kill."

Was the bad thing 9/11? Certainly that was anti-government related. Did Bin Laden's addiction to Fox News prompt his declaration of war on America? I really have no evidence one way or another, so I can't rule out the possibility... Hold on. George Bush was President then. That was obviously back when Fox News was pro-government.

Oh, I've got one! Melinda Duckett, that woman who committed suicide because of her interview with that mean television anchor Nancy Grace, that's an example of Fox News -- No, no wait. Nancy Grace is on CNN Headline News. Sorry, never mind.

There really appears to be a rather unhealthy fixation by some people on Fox News as the cause of all the ills of society, or at very least the major contributor. I realize affixing blame and finding scapegoats is a long American tradition (be they Fat Cat Bankers, Reds, heavy metal music, violent Hollywood movies, etc.), but you've got to pause and think: Was the world free of "bad things" prior to Fox News going on the air in 1996? And have the number of "bad things" really increased since Fox News began broadcasting? Is there anything else going on in society that might push people to the breaking point and the commission of bad things (like, say, a bad economy)?

There are equally tenuous fixations we can draw for cause and effect. One of my favourites: John Hinkley Jr. and Mark David Chapman were both found with copies of The Catcher in the Rye on their person after they gunned down Ronald Reagan and John Lennon, respectively. So, should J.D. Salinger have been tried for murder, for writing hate literature that inspired otherwise decent young men to horrific violence? Good heavens, Jodi, only Mein Kampf and Mao's Little Red Book have resulted in the deaths of more people than Salinger's murder manual! The man's the monster! I'm certain Lee Harvey Oswald, Sirhan Sirhan, James Earl Ray and Arthur Bremer all read his little brown hate book too. We must end the madness! Ban that book quick before more lives are lost!

On a more serious and sobering note, let's step back and look at some basic facts. The United States has a population of 300 million people. It's been suggested that roughly 10 percent of the population has mental health issues. That would be 30 million sick in the head people, which is a real comforting thought. Let's say for sake of argument that 1 in 10,000 people is a stark raving violent loon, waiting for a moment to snap. That would be 30,000 people -- the population of a small town -- walking the streets, one spilled cup of coffee, one stray hand gesture, one divorce filing, one tax notice, one whatever away from snapping, doing harm to themselves and perhaps others.

If one of these 30,000 people snapped each day, every day, we would have a little over 82 consecutive years of violence, day in and day out. Roughly an average human lifespan. And that's just the fragile few from this country, that doesn't factor this out on a global scale. (I won't run that number. I want you to be able to sleep at night.)

You can switch the lights out at Fox News, and the bad things will continue to happen. But perhaps, just perhaps, Fox News and the Tea Party Movement just might be societal pressure valves that helps people channel their anger and frustration and feelings of helplessness into constructive change.

The rest of the rabble here?  I expect nothing from them and my expectations are always met.

Rabble, Mike? I'm just... part of the rabble? But... but I thought...

To try and get past the "Red State / Blue State / Who is the Creating and Feeding the Monsters?" conversational death spiral, I'd like to share with the group the following links to two recent briefing documents prepared by the Department of Homeland Security on emerging left- and right-wing threats:

Leftwing Extremists Likely to Increase Use of Cyber Attacks Over the Coming Decade

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/leftwing.pdf

Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment

http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf

Geoff: yeah, the guy was nuts, but it was stated and then agreed on by Kevin that it's more likely that he was a blue nut than a red one and if I'm the a-hole in this scenario then...

Well.  You know I think you're a smart guy.  I'll let you figure that one out.

Matthew - you're not rabble.  You've said things that I both agree and disagree with, but at least you're processing thoughts and expressing yourself clearly.  I'm more talking about those who I've fenced with over the last 8 years on here who just auto-parrot the same talking points.

This is a bigger frustration I have with America - we were supposed to be BETTER now.  There was a zietgiest that rode in with Obama where people suddenly were tired of sitting in their own shit - people wanted to be BETTER.  Lose some weight.  Educate themselves.  Process thoughts.  Not be ruled by and react to fear.  Etc.

That lasted about a week. 

This whole thread - the whole tea-bagger movement is a testament to that failure.  As noted by Geoff above - people should be concerned with the finance of our nation.  More or less.  (Because what can you do?  That's like saying you can controll the weather.  Guess which lib isn't an environmentalist, either?)  But to use that as a talking point to complain NOW?  NOW in 2009?  2010?  After what Regan, Bush 1 and Bush 2 did our economy? 

Really?  Really.  REALLY? 

And then, to do so under the umbrella of the Boston Tea Party?  Holy shit - if any of these tea-baggers crack a history book their heads will assplode from the cruel bitter irony.  (HINT: The original "Tea-Party" was the same as the current one - the rich business interests tricking dopes into fighting their battles for them)

I want to see America do better - I can tolerate a lot of sloppy - but seeing us become the laughing stock of the world in the last 10 years, with the rise of hicks wandering Walmart in their PJs, their fat faces covered in cheetos dust while they run up debt consuming mass quantities of shit they don't need? 

I had pinned a lot of hopes on a cultural change when Obama took office, but I failed to remember the basic truth of the situation - Money Talks.  The Corporate Power Structure in America doesn't give two shits if any of our fat fucks live or die - thanks to the global economy and the rising financial power of former third world nations, they've left us to wither and die.  We mean nothing to WalMart and yet... we still line up to buy plastic bullshit made by slave labor that we don't need.

I'm VERY disgusted, yes I am.