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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 9:56pm | IP Logged | 1  

So a few weeks ago I had a severe kidney infection. (Just an aside - don't ever have problems with your kidneys, be it stones or an infection. The pain is excruciating!)

I went to the hospital and got a blood test, a urine test, and a CT Scan. I was given pain meds. I was there for about 12 hours overall - the ER was pretty jam packed that night with Ambulance calls and other stuff. Got a prescription for antibiotics and left at the end. The antibiotics cost me 50 bucks.

I have no health insurance, medical insurance, life insurance, anything. And for all I went through, I paid 50 bucks for meds. Yes, I know the rest came out of my taxes... but I still live pretty well for what I make. 

To my American friends who DON'T support socialized healthcare - how much would I have spent if the same situation had happened and I lived in Fargo, not Winnipeg? 
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 10:40pm | IP Logged | 2  

I really think all of us can agree on the really important thing in this thread, Potato=good and must be protected.

I do like the idea of death squads, though.  I want to sign up to be on one.

LOL

Glad the tea baggers were also helpful in stopping govt health care, because these guys need the money:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wellpoint-faces-firestorm-o ver-profits-2010-02-10


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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 10:42pm | IP Logged | 3  

Brad stop your Canadian commie talk. :0)
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | 4  

I really think all of us can agree on the really important thing in this thread, Potato=good and must be protected. 

Brad stop your Canadian commie talk. :0)

---

Potatoes are a source of certain vodkas. Some vodkas are from Russia. Russia used to be Communist. Some Russians still are Communist. They drink vodka. And they hoard potatoes to starve Ukrainians. Presumably to make vodka. 

Captain America was saving the potatoes in Idaho from Communists so they couldn't make vodka! If he goes after the elderly in Florida next, it stands to reason that Captain America wants to stop me from enjoying a Screwdriver ever again!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm appalled by the fact that Captain America is promoting prohibition laws in a modern comic! This is what Civil War was really about, people - Tony wants off the wagon and Cap is trying to keep him on it by making booze illegal again!
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 11:03pm | IP Logged | 5  

I really think all of us can agree on the really important thing in this thread, Potato=good and must be protected.

---

I'm not agreeing to that. Potatoes have a high glycemic index, contributing to the obesity epidemic in the US and adding to the cost of health care. We need to take preemptive action against the Axis of Carbs: Iowa with their corn, Idaho with their potatoes, and New York with their cheesecake.
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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 6  

Fresh corn on the cob with warm melted butter is like edible Heaven. 

I'm rolling up my sleeves, removing my glasses and watch, taking out my two earrings, and cracking my knuckles. 

Michael Roberts - welcome to Thunderdome!
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Rich Rice
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 7  

Hi Matt,

Nothing easy here. At least nothing that would conveniently fit the typical sloganeering that drives votes. We sit on a small planet in the middle of a hostile Universe, where on one side temperatures sit unimaginably below zero. And from the other side, radiation bombards our magnetic shields with forces that would kill all life given the chance. Between these forces, our numbers inexorably expand, putting ever increasing pressures on our resources and our intellect. We need to be smarter and we need to adapt.

What is most needed as the human race moves forward is an understanding that every segment of human society in interconnected to every segment of human society. The greater the numbers, the more essential it becomes that the colony does well, not just one strata of that colony. I'm not speaking of socialism or communism, but a rational form of Capitalism that balances the needs of society across the board.

Republicans constantly harp on "taxes" as the means to improve our economic health. To which I say, "Bull." I'm no graduate of an Ivy League business school, but even I know the best way to expand business, increasing hiring, make money is to sell what ever you have to sell like hot cakes going out of style. Not "Oh, let's make a hire because our tax rate just went from 7% to 5." Moving product creates jobs. -But moving product assumes there are consumers out there with the capitol to buy those products. Which brings us to the failure of our economic system the past 70+ years. We live in a consumer society where the middle class and lower middle class have been losing wealth year end, year out. Part of this is due to a global economy. Part of this is due to our dying manufacturing base. A lot of this is because our economic policies have served in a way that it creates more and more wealth for the wealthy. -And its not just government that has created a dying middle class. The middle class has collaborated with a mindset that helps protect the wealth of the wealthy.

Just a page or so back, you gave me the 't-shirt' argument. The same one a good friend of mine from college (Republican) gave me a few years ago. (He was a business major btw...) Higher wages will increase the cost of doing business. So the t-shirts you and I need to buy will cost more. To which I replied, how convenient for you to focus on only one side. You ask Unions to question the impact of their actions on that t-shirt. But how many upper management decisions are based on protecting the price point of my t-shirt? When futures of t-shirts rise and fall is anyone thinking, "Let's not do this. It will raise the price of t-shirts." When billion dollar bonuses get shifted here and there. That largess comes from somewhere. The cost of my t-shirt perhaps?

Interesting that you'd point to wage standards set in San Franscisco. So what will be the economic pressures to come from 2 of the major health care providers in California raising their rates by 40% in a time of a recession and low -to no- inflation. In a time where they made billion dollar profits. What's a union worker to do? Turn to his wife and say, "Well I'm sorry dear that you just got breast cancer. Our 'excessive' wages aren't going to cover the lastest jump in our premium." Those higher premiums aren't doing our national debt -or California's debt any good. It will increase the cost of Government assisted medicine. It will increase the cost of Hospitals doing business. It is going to provide pressures on that Union worker to ask for even more excessive wages. -And it will push more and more small businesses to drop health care for their employees.

Holy Frack, doesn't Coporate Blue Cross care about the price of T-shirts???
Apparently not. It's a dog eat dog world. -Or as Joni Mitchell put it:
Some are treated well
In these games of buy and sell
And some like poor beasts are burdened down to breaking.

Economic forces and Economic policies shrank the manufacturing middle class. We became a consumer society with ever diminishing buying power. We went through a brief respite thanks to the tech boom, housing boom and credit card booms. The consuming class didn't have money but it discovered fake monetary means in  the form of inflated home equity and borrowing. The numbers on savings in the Consumer class tells the tale. The bubble burst and the solution people are reaching for is a return to the very policies that got us in this mess.

It won't work. You're right, the system IS broken. We cannot be a dollar poor consumer society with the vast majority of Government economic policy working in ways to push wealth to the already wealthy. Not because being wealthy is "evil". Things need to be adjusted so the system as a whole functions.

Cutting 1.5 trillion off the national debt would savage our consumer society. Cutting revenue when government on all levels is without revenue is pure suicide.
The solution? Toss the feel good offerings that get votes. Stop electing morons who live to feed the morons that are us, feel good offerings. Recognize the problem: we are a consumer society that does not have enough economic power  in the consumer class to sustain a robust economy.

If you're going to make cuts in spending, make it real and across ideological lines. You can't say, 'we'll cut the things the other guy likes.'

Search for ways that preventatively lower cost. When nurses wash their hands, there are fewer hospital related illnesses. It saves taxpayers more. More washing hands, please. -When Blue Cross raises rates 40% it costs taxpayers money. Hammer their asses. More emphasis on education. Less on the Penal system. More international cooperation. Less on guns.

There's still a bounty of blessings on this fragile green ball. But the blessings are finite. And our numbers increase. We are either going to get smart, or die dumb.

(My money's on dying dumb.)


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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 2:44am | IP Logged | 8  

Rich,

The t-shirt argument? Not me, my friend. I'm a button down collar guy (at least on weekdays).

Just to clarify: Prevailing wage is not a wage standard per se but an arbitrary pay requirement codified by the California Legislature as the cost to government for completing public works. It's not tied to the real localized economy. Keep in mind the prevailing wage in southern California is indexed to a different standard, and other prevailing wages used throughout the state are indexed to different levels. Ours being linked to San Francisco makes it way out of wack. California has the population of Canada, so our situation would be like applying Toronto wage rates to Lloydminster, Alberta. Not exactly apples-to-apples. Worse, it enriches a few at the expense of the many.

Beyond that, from what you've written, I don't think we're in great disagreement. I'm a Canadian. I'm not a Republican or a Democrat. I'm not invested in a particular ideology. I will admit an aversion to programs that idle the population, sap individual initiative and decrease productivity, but I am also against corporate welfare which hitches business to the government money train. I do not automatically think that government is bad (I work in government), but likewise it sickens me when government needlessly meddles in the economy to pick winners and losers, or worse, fails to do what it is chartered to do.

I would be much happier if government was not offering questionable discount rate loans through Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, and was instead regulating Wall Street through an effective SEC. If the FCC was less worried about words used in primetime or "the fairness doctrine" and more concerned about concentration of corporate media ownership. If the FDA was actually looking out for consumers rather than being the captive tool of Big Pharma and Agribusiness.

I'd be happier if there was still a stigma to drawing unemployment insurance or welfare, rather than the government broadening the access to entitlements. As a Canadian, I was raised with an honest respect and conviction for the social safety net, maintaining a floor that people won't fall below. But when we've got third and fourth generation welfare families, when we've got a sizable segment of our population content to subsist on the crumbs that drop to the floor, we're failing as a society. Short-term help in times of need has become long-term maintenance and a viable lifestyle choice. It's a drain on the public purse and deadening to the soul.

I was thinking the other morning: what's the longest war that the United States has been engaged in? WWII? Vietnam? Afghanistan? No, it's the War on Poverty, going strong since 1964. Billions of dollars invested, and marginal gains achieved. The rate of those at or below the poverty level 45 years later is virtually identical (with the admission that being poor in America is far different than being poor in the rest of the world). Only when the War on Poverty is compared to the War on Drugs does it look the least bit successful.

We were only months in Iraq before the media started drawing attention to the cost of that commitment, both in dollars and lives. We are spending far more dollars and losing far more lives in our War on Poverty, albeit in a much less dramatic fashion compared to the video footage of a roadside IED. When do we start critically looking at the War on Poverty? When do we realize that our tactics are not working and we need to develop a new plan of attack? (Musing: If we were to pull out, to cut and run on the War on Poverty, would it really make matters all that worse?)

A few thousand die in combat overseas and we wring our hands, march in the streets, protest the immorality of it all. Yet over 40,000 people a year die in traffic accidents in this country and that doesn't register one whit. Where's the rallies against the death merchants from Detroit and Japan? As many troops as we've lost in Iraq in the last eight years, we've lost at least twice that number over the same time from the effects of inner-City violence. (I feel safe with that estimate; reality is likely more.) Again, where is the outrage?

No, instead the media chooses to pour salt on the leeches attending the Tea Party rallies. A group of citizens enact their right to free speech, stand-up and say we are spending beyond our means, we are being taxed too much, and it all needs to stop before the country goes over the cliff. They are collectively condemned as racists and uninformed self-centered greedy idiots. I grant you that a significant number attending those rallies may suffer from some or all those flaws.

They may also be right.

It may not be the smartest investment of my money, but I'll cover your dying dumb bet. (Then again, how do you collect if you win? Maybe it's not that bad coverage after all...) I just spent the last two evenings watching Fail Safe and Dr. Strangelove with my 15 year old, partly to give her some perspective that the world was not a perfect place which suddenly lurched into crisis the last few years. Different ages have brought on different challenges, most of them of our own making and unmaking. I have faith that we as a species will continue to struggle along.


Edited by Matthew McCallum on 14 February 2010 at 2:48am
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Steve Horn
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 5:20am | IP Logged | 9  

Why don't Quesada apologize for being editor in chief at Marvel?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 6:13am | IP Logged | 10  

"I'd be happier if there was still a stigma to drawing unemployment insurance or welfare, rather than the government broadening the access to entitlements. As a Canadian, I was raised with an honest respect and conviction for the social safety net, maintaining a floor that people won't fall below. But when we've got third and fourth generation welfare families, when we've got a sizable segment of our population content to subsist on the crumbs that drop to the floor, we're failing as a society. Short-term help in times of need has become long-term maintenance and a viable lifestyle choice. It's a drain on the public purse and deadening to the soul."

I agree that being on welfare should be something that everyone should strive to avoid. When it was introduced, there was a certain work ethic in place where people wanted to work, where there was honor and dignity in earning a living.  The welfare system was put in place for people who couldn't get jobs, however much they looked, who were too physically broken (some by workplace injuries, others by disease) to work. 

It replaced the undignified solutions of begging for money to buy food, subsisting on charities (that might in turn reject the "unworthy"), being put in workhouses or poorhouses, turning to crime or prostitution (not that those latter options were succefully eliminated).

And for the rich and the middle classes, it removed the threat of political instability, the prospect of an uprising with communist overtones (or really just riots to get acces to food and shelter).

And all these welfare and union compromises were made in parts as check and balances on the employer's side of things, the "capitalist engine of society" which also depends on ethical approaches in order to function.  When capitalist ethics fail, you get a stock market crisis like the current one, and working people get treated like crap. When worker's ethic fail, you get welfare abuse, and a drain on the economy from that side.

There does need to be a return to ethical behaviour, but it needs to happen on both sides.  The guys on wall street need to be watched and prodded back towards respecting the ethical framework that makes capitalism work to the benefit of society just as much as people on welfare need to be prodded back towards respecting the ethical framework that makes the social safety net work to the benefit of society.

I am forever a sceptic towards welfare reform, because it mostly seems like it's about taking away benefits indiscriminately and the people who are most in favor of welfare reform also seem least interested in ethical reform of the banking, stock market, insurance and financial industry. It seems one-sided to me, and that's disturbing.

I am sure there are others who have similar impressions that there is too much focus on the financial industry and too little on welfare abuse from the left

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Carmen Bernardo
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 6:46am | IP Logged | 11  

  It kind of saddens me that it's come to this.  Ever since the Vietnam era, I can see a trend of "poisoning the well" in political debate which seems only to have escalated to the point that the extremes are being used to play against the middle.  Our mass media has had its part in exploiting this by shutting out actual discussion of the issues involved in favor of spectacular shouting contests.  That it shows favoritism towards the "progressives" (as commentator Glenn Beck has called them) makes it hard for me to truly call them "liberal".

   What really disturbs me about all of this is that I find it easy to see the seeds of another civil war in it.  The 19th Century civil war that did so much damage to the United States in that era started out pretty much the same way, with the opposing sides on the issues of slavery and States' rights standing further and further apart and getting ever more belligerent until someone started the fire that raged into the veritable inferno of that conflict.  Not one of them seemed to care about the aftermath of it.

   Back to the subject on hand, it would seem to me that Quesada stepped in it here.  Unfortunately, the damage had been done years ago when they decided in other comics that only white males were appropriate villains and that any villainy on the part of "minorities" was actually a noble cause.  They wouldn't show the damage that some on the left were inflicting with their own prejudicial acts.  This latest episode is just one of those rare instances where it was exposed and there was a reaction to it beyond the fringes of the comicbook-reading public.

   Still, I think there should be a debate on the issues represented in the anti-taxing movement.  How much is going too far?  What about the interests of those future generations who'll probably end up holding the bill for all the expansive programs being proposed by the current government using those taxes to be levied upon them?  At what point do we realize that villifying business owners as a whole only leads to no one wanting to start a business up out of fear of becoming a target for those now prejudiced against them (and thus taking away employment opportunities for those who would want and need the jobs to provide income for life's necessities in the first place)?

   The problem with trying to tie that into a comicbook which paints things in simplistic "hero vs villain" colors is that a true balance in the perspectives can be lost if the editors and/or creative teams bring their own (or popular) prejudices into play in the storytelling...

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Patrick McNally
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Posted: 14 February 2010 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 12  

"decided in other comics that only white males were appropriate villains and that any villainy on the part of "minorities" was actually a noble cause"

When, where, was this?  Admittedly, it's been about 25 years since I was a regular reader of Marvel.  But I recall characters such as Pirahna Jones, Big Brother, Lionfang, the first Chemistro, actually most of the Luke Cage villains were black.  It's possible that some of that may have shifted when Cage merged together with Ironfist, though I don't really recall that as being the case in a major way.

Then let's not forget Pennysworth, and how the rich Kyle Richmond left him in charge of everything so that he could fund the Sons of the Serpent.  That didn't come off as a noble cause by Pennysworth.  Did things really change that much after 1985 to the point where black villains become unkosher?  Just wondering.



Edited by Patrick McNally on 15 February 2010 at 1:49pm
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