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Topic: Healthcare Debate (was: Quesada apologizes) (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 9:05pm | IP Logged | 1  


 QUOTE:
Your series of questions gave rise to a thought: Let's say a couple of years ago we were writing a Captain America story about a subversive fifth column group of drug runners and gang members that want to bring down the United States. That's good meat for a Captain America story! And, because we want to reflect the real world, we juxtapose our storyline against the mass marches of the illegal immigrants, so the implication is that (at least some) illegal immigrants are working hand in glove with our nasty subversives and part of this insidious plot.

How much holy hell do you think that story would raise? How quickly would we be branded insensitive racists and hate-peddlers? And just how different is that characterization from what Brubaker is engaged in now?

Interesting scenerio.  Trying to picture that scenerio.

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Steven Myers
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 10:05pm | IP Logged | 2  

I'm sorry, did my post come off as snarky?  I thought Joseph made a point.  As I said wayyyy upthread, the teabaggers are a lot like other protesters (including environmental groups, the most liberal pf groups) where thay have a vague idea but don't accept that there are complexities to these issues.

For example, I give Bush credit for not wanting to run up the debt.  He did it because he started one too many wars, and he wanted tax cuts to finance the wars.  The fault lies in the invasion of Iraq and fiscally unsound tax cuts, not his liberal spending policies.

Obama has expressed a desire to get spending under control, and started to get things moving in that direction.  The huge spending is in response to the financial crisis, and he sees it as necessary.  (Have you noticed the Republicans who voted against the recovery act but love getting the money for their home districts?).  I doubt the government can fix our economy, but it will improve anyway (we're starting to see growth now).  The government will become more fiscally sound, like back in the 90's.

It isn't easy.  You can't change things with teabag convention.  It takes more ideas than making the rich pay or making people who can't speak English leave.  But I think America will get things under control in the long run, and I think, right now, Barack Obama is the man to lead us!

(There are also plenty of Republicans I like, including John McCain and Scott Brown.) 

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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 10:07pm | IP Logged | 3  

So all of the *teabaggers are small business owners with personal assets including cash, investments, property, etc worth a quarter of million dollars? I have a strong suspicion the ones who apparently can't spell and have terrible grammar don't own their own "small" business.
Last time I checked government programs could run the gamut from proper funding for public education to military spending. 1 tax dollar buys several more goods and services then 1 dollar spent in the private sector. Taxes are not the enemy, improper spending i.e. bailing out the banks instead of the people is what teabaggers and plenty of others should be upset about.
(*why would a group name itself for a silly. immature sex act anyway?)
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Mike Norris
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | 4  

Boston Tea Party.
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Jeff Gillmer
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 10:41pm | IP Logged | 5  

Marc, it was former reality show host Anderson Cooper that first used the phrase "teabaggers", and much of the left wing media picked up on it.  So as for being immature, there's your source.  It's a play on the title Boston Tea Party, but it means "Taxed Enough Already".  It's not just the federal taxes and fees, but the local cities and counties that are raising taxes or imposing more "fees" for services.  If all government agencies would just be more intelligent about spending money, we would all be in better shape.
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | 6  

There's nothing wrong with silly, immature sex acts. 
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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 11:00pm | IP Logged | 7  

Mike O'Brien,

I'm a Nor-Cal guy too: Redding (REAL Nor-Cal!) Are you down in the Bay Area?
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Jodi Moisan
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 11:15pm | IP Logged | 8  

  If all government agencies would just be more intelligent about spending money, we would all be in better shape.

Jeff the problem is, we the people, don't do our part, we are lazy. As I said, I go to almost every town council meeting and there are usually 7 citizens there. These guys know they can do almost anything because people don't show up to question their actions. They spend millions lining their friends pockets. But if they don't feel any accountability why do the right thing.

My town council has 5 members, 4 R's and 1 D, where is the outrage on spending by the local anti tax group?  They are here in our county, but they only go to council meetings where democrats are the majority.


Edited by Jodi Moisan on 12 February 2010 at 11:15pm
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Lee Painter
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 11:31pm | IP Logged | 9  

I'm guessing most of the tea baggers don't exactly know what they're protesting. It's just an opprotunity for ignorant people to make a lot of noise in public and insult Obama by calling him a socialist, communist, or fascist, you know because they all are the same thing. I'm no fan of Obama either *for other reasons) but the fact is federal taxes are only being raised on those making 240k more a year (those who can afford it) and even then US will still have one of the lowest tax rates of any industrialized country in the world.

If these people are so opposed to paying taxes, then they should rip up their medicare cards, refuse to collect social security checks and stay off roads built with state and federal tax money.

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Matthew McCallum
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Posted: 12 February 2010 at 11:38pm | IP Logged | 10  

Marc,

1 tax dollar buys several more goods and services then 1 dollar spent in the private sector.

Really? I guess you've never heard of a concept of prevailing wage. That's where our contracts have to be bid out at the prevailing union wage rate for that trade -- based on the San Francisco rate. There is a HUGE gulf in the cost of the labour pool between Redding and San Fran. Prevailing wage adds at least three times to our labour costs on projects. And that's just ONE example of your tax dollars going "farther" in the public sector. I can share with you lots more.

Taxes are not the enemy, improper spending i.e. bailing out the banks instead of the people is what teabaggers and plenty of others should be upset about.

I think most of the Tea Party crowd aren't all that keen about TARP and all the other government spending...

Let's deal with this in the specific rather than the abstract. Let me provide you with some practical data so you can get the scope and scale of the issue of government spending in the United States:


If you take federal, state and local spending in the United States for 2010, you get a total of $6.5 trillion. You've got roughly $1 trillion each in Pensions, Healthcare and Education. Defense is roughly $900 billion and Welfare is $750 billion. Over $300 billion goes toward debt service. The annual deficit runs $1.5 trillion. (That's right: we spend $1.5 trillion MORE than we take in via taxes and other revenues.)

What you've got in the budget is a mix of strategic investments in people and infrastructure that leads to better economic productivity and ultimately more revenue generation (like education and some healthcare programs); national security programs that protect peace and prosperity; and social welfare programs that essentially are public maintenance.

With a national debt ceiling raised earlier today to $14.2 trillion, we are in a VERY deep hole that's only getting deeper every year. And that debt is NOT taking into account the future financial obligations of Medicare and Social Security, let alone any new government entitlement programs that may emerge like the proposed Health Care Reforms.

Starting to get an idea why there might be a tax revolt erupting?
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Rich Rice
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 12:26am | IP Logged | 11  

More goofy, silly, posturing.

"Small" Government went out the window when the U.S. population went over the 100 million mark. By this inverse theory of social order, when the U.S. population hits the 500 million mark, our Federal Government should be the size of a rural Kansas post office. More people. More demands on the system... soooo, how about a smaller system???

Like that'll happen...

We have these enormous RESPONSIBILITES  in place that require huge capitol to sustain them and people are actually clinging to some fantasy that the way out is reducing revenue... and that thanks to a general sense of ennui over a mounting debt, no less. Combine this with an even sillier position that it will all work out because we're going to  cut spending....on things we have no entention of giving up.

Maybe, if you told me you were going to do something substantial, like cut Military Spending by half. End the federal government being guarantor from a host of social failures ranging from home insurance to economic markets. That you planned to take away those farm subsidies and economic perks to Corporations. Once you get past military spending, interest payments on the debt, Medicare, Social Security and the like, the pie left for 'cutting' is not all that much. And if that pie has even further components that are off the table... what is there to cut? And to cut those social programs to some substantial degree, one would set off a tidal wave of hurt in the society. -We talk of a 'do nothing' Congress, but if we had to live with a 'do nothing' Government because no one is willing to pony up the $$$$. That will make for an interesting life.

Of course, it will never happen. There's not a tea bagger between Sacramento and Cape Cod ready to hack our military budget down to what WE CAN AFFORD. Not a tea bagger in all of 'ready to turn red' Pennsylvania ready to bump Social Security up to 75 and end payments for Granny's chemo. Not a tea bagger in Nebraska who wouldn't turn to the Feds if mother nature came along and hit their crops with blight. Not a tea bagger in all of Sillicon Valley who would say to our President, "Please, don't declare us a Federal disaster area when the big quake hits." Not a tea bagger in sight ready to slice Homeland Security down to an 'affordable, balanced budget, no borrowing, no new taxes' level. -What ever shall we do about meat inspection? Infrastructure needs? 9-11 memorials and a host of other Christmas trinkets. Slash it all by 40, 50%???

Nope. Nadda. Not a one.

It's like Internet porn. We want but we don't want to pay.

Same for state level government. California, Illinois can't pay their vendors. It's a crying shame. -Well, just cut the vendors free.... We don't need their services. That's what the tea bags pretend they are offering...



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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 13 February 2010 at 12:51am | IP Logged | 12  

So the key to controlling the deficit is to continue George Bush tax-cuts for the wealthy?
Simple economics: Tax-breaks are equivalent to gov't spending
Want out of the deficit and debt?
Eliminate most/all tax breaks for businesses, corporations, and the wealthy, raise everyone's taxes but tie it income i.e. less income=smaller tax increase, higher income=larger tax increase, and control/reduce spending.

Tax protests because teabaggers don't like their level of taxation won't reduce the deficit or pay down the debt.
Americans live and conduct business in one of the lowest rate of tax countries in the world, and the wealthy or businesses trying to get out of paying their fair share is akin to wanting something for nothing.
A business owner wants the privilege of doing business in the enormous American economy, then they pay the required taxes, or do business in some other country and learn what really counts as high levels of taxation.
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