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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3091
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 1
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It's sad to read on several sites people are already complaining that Kirby's heirs are suing Marvel.
Marvel's deals with Kirby and the past may have all been fair and square, but if the worst that can is happen is Kirby's children and grandchildren use legal technicalities to peel a few more bucks off the properties before the copyrights expire, I don't think I'll be losing sleep over the injustice of it all. It's not like Marvel hasn't profited from its own aggressive exploitation of copyright and trademark loopholes over the years.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3091
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 2
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And of course when Alan Moore denied Marvel permission to reprint his stories, they did the ethical thing and...
Reprinted the stories anyway.
Bring on the good guys!
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 3
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I agree that copyright extends beyond the creation of the characters, but here's where we get into the difference between what's "right" and what's "legal." I assume the Kirby/Marvel suit isn't merely about the right to reprint Kirby stories, but the right to use Kirby-created (or co-created) properties. John's point, I take it, is that Kirby himself followed the work for hire policy that "sucked;" true, I guess, and likely the ghost artists/inkers of Fighting American and Bullseye got nothing when Simon (and/or Kirby Estate) licensed Marvel (and earlier, Harvey) the right to reprint the stories. ( I doubt, as well, that Jerry Grandinetti and others picked up any cash for the various Eisner Spirit reprints, but I'd be happy to hear otherwise). That may be an injustice, but a relatively minor one relative to an artist's receiving zero for, say, movie licensing for millions of bucks of a character he or she created. My point is that so far as I know, none of the S&K writers and artists created any classic characters for S&K, so as a practical matter, they lost little or nothing. (It may be that one can contrast the artists who worked for Eisner in that respect, such as Bob Powell, who did the Mr. Mystic backup, tho' it may also be that Eisner created the character for Powell to draw--I simply don't know).
Edited by Robert Cosgrove on 09 January 2010 at 6:05pm
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Joel Tesch Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 2830
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 4
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I still think they look bad for including Spider-Man in the mix. Why over reach?
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Lee Painter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2009 Posts: 304
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 5
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I don't know why Lee is putting "heir" within quotation marks. Children are the very definition of heirs. Because that is what the article refered to them as. Anyways, relatives of the greatest comic artist of all time vs. ginat heartless corproation (Disney) I don't like the Kirby familie's chances.
Edited by Lee Painter on 09 January 2010 at 9:50pm
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Robert Cosgrove Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 January 2005 Location: United States Posts: 1710
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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I agree with you, Joel. The funny thing is, though, given the Siegel/Shuster precedent discussed upthread, there's evidence that Kirby brought the name Spider-man, and the logo, to Lee, and that the name and logo had preexisted for years, long before Kirby came back to what became Marvel, as discussed at some length in a previous thread where we all argued about who created Spider-man. It would be ironic if Kirby's heirs met with more success claiming a character Lee and Ditko had created than one Lee and Kirby created.
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Brian Floyd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 8570
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Posted: 09 January 2010 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 7
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From what I understand, it was Joe Simon who came up with the Spider-Man name, not Kirby....
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4620
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Posted: 10 January 2010 at 1:05am | IP Logged | 8
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Lee Painter wrote:
Because that is what the article refered to them as. Anyways, relativesof the greatest comic artist of all time vs. ginat heartlesscorproation (Disney) I don't like the Kirby familie's chances. |
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I still don't follow you. The article didn't refer to them as "heirs", it called them heirs. Putting quotation marks around a single word can add a connotation of sarcasm to a word, suggesting you are questioning its use or validity. I don't know if that was your intent, but if it was I don't understand why you would question the appropriateness of calling Kirby's four children his heirs.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 10 January 2010 at 1:36am | IP Logged | 9
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"And of course when Alan Moore denied Marvel permission to reprint his stories, they did the ethical thing and...
Reprinted the stories anyway.
Bring on the good guys! " Nope. Alan Davis (who drew those stories and had copyrights on the artwork) kept pushing for the stories to be published. Alan Moore kept refusing to allow it. Then he finally relented, but when, through a production gaffe, he was not credited as a copyrightholder or writer on the indicia page (the one with all the legalese in front of the book) he refused to allow further printings of a book that rapidly sold out. However, according to european copyright law, if a copyright to an inseperable work is split equally between 2 people, all that is required is for one party to show that the deal to have it published is reasonable in terms of money and quality. The publication, which Alan Davis had been pushing for decades had only been held off on to appease Alan Moore. In fact, one might say that what was unethical was to delay the printing of the Captain Britain stories when Alan Davis wanted it and the project was clearly financially viable. Alan Moore was denying his co-creator Alan Davis the revenue from the book at the time that it would have profitted him the most out of spite because Marvel asked for the name "Marvelman" to be changed to "Miracleman" on publication in America, a perfectly reasonable attempt to protect their trademark. As I understand it, it has now been reprinted again, and that's good. However, had it been published when Alan Davis was writing/drawing Excalibur (with Captain Britain and several of the secondary characters from the Captain Britain strip), when Alan Moore was a hot seller in mainstream comics and before the comics market collapsed, Alan Davis (and Alan Moore, but that's irrelevant as he can deny himself whatever he wants) could probably have earned at least 10 to 20 times as much in royalties from it. Add to that steady sales over 2 decades (just like everything else in Alan Moore's catalogue). And that's a lot of steady income for any freelancer to lose out on. But by all means, let's all indulge Alan Moore his little hypocrisies.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3091
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Posted: 10 January 2010 at 9:17am | IP Logged | 10
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Knut: In the 1980's, Marvel reprinted Moore stories from Dr. Who without permission or payment. In the 90's, prior to the authorized Captain Britain reprint you mention, Marvel reprinted the stories without Moore's permission as part of a miniseries. And as you say, once they finally had Moore's permission, Marvel left Moore's copyright off the indicia, something I'm sure was an accident.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 10 January 2010 at 9:29am | IP Logged | 11
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Well, as the copyright law is pretty much the same in all of western Europe on this issue, they probably didn't actually need Moore's permission to reprint the Captain Britain stories, since Marvel owned copyrights on the characters and Alan Davis had split copyright on the stories. He was due money, though. At least as much as Alan Davis received. Either way, it was not unethical for Marvel to reprint the stories without his permission as long as they had permission from his collaborator. They may have unethically failed to pay him for reprinting them, but that's another matter.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3091
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Posted: 10 January 2010 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 12
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I doubt it was Marvel's comprehension of European copyright that prompted the unauthorized reprints. It certainly didn't stop them from reprinting Moore's text pieces, which were copyright to him alone.
In any case, it sounds like you and I agree on principal: it's not worth losing sleep when some jerk who lives by the sword dies by the sword.
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