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William McMahon
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 March 2009
Location: Canada
Posts: 224
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 1
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I like good stories...
The initial premise to me of a story is that you are given a situation and characters that through certain events that present themselves during the story LEAD to questions and in some cases changes in the thoughts and behaviors of those characters. The characters that are of most interest to the READER should be the ones that encounter those problems and their solutions to them.
If, as a reader I don't agree with the solutions that those characters choose, that doesn't necessarily mean to me that I've read a bad story. It may in fact bring about a revisiting of my own thoughts on certain issues.
If a story doesn't even attempt to do that, or worse is just a rehash of another plot, then there's nothing of worth to it; no matter how graphic the art or the language is, the story HAS to be worth something to be good.
Mindless joyrides are fine if that is the premise, but to me they are just like an Arron Spelling TV show or Poker after Dark, there's nothing challenging, just a reasonably presented beginning, middle and end.
The "Grim" and "Gritty" genre isn't the problem, the lack of good to excellent stories is.
Edited by William McMahon on 14 November 2009 at 10:30am
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 12:41pm | IP Logged | 2
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WATCHMEN ain't a comic booh with superheroes. That features "superpowered people", non superheroes.
WATCHMEN it's okay for me because it's a good comic book, but I'd NEVER wish it were the common standard for superheroes comics. I have not problems with g&g, what I want is that it's not the only way to tell stories. Maybe this example can be useful: if I'm a soccer fan, which game should enjoy more? An epic, correct match or a foul played game where half of the platers are sent out the field?
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Luke Styer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1515
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
No, in fact [Watchmen] did something even worse: it rewrote the whole
concept of the superhero. Feet of clay is one thing, as Stan Lee
showed us so superbly. What Moore did, masquerading as
"deconstruction", was pure destruction. |
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I'm not sure I buy that Watchmen did that, so much as the books that followed along in its wake did that. I think Watchmen is severely overrated, but is a solid and interesting take on superheroes, though interesting only in its relative novelty. I say relative novelty because Watchmen wasn't even the first "dark" superhero story that Alan Moore did, let alone the first period -- it just had a bigger impact than its predecessors.
Because Watchmen used analog characters, I don't find much that is objectionable about it. Arguably Dark Knight Returns is more objectionable because it took the Watchmen approach, applied it to a mainstream American superhero and showed that doing so was a route to financial success.
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Joe Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6666
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 4
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I hear what you're all saying, but, Dave Gibbons poured SO much into every page on that thing, I have a hard time calling it overrated. Heck, I barely even READ the words for the first 5 years I owned the series. The art was that good.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:46pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm not sure I buy that Watchmen did that, so much as the books that
followed along in its wake did that.•• The other dominoes don't topple until the first one has.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:48pm | IP Logged | 6
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Rick - no, it's not apples and oranges. As a matter of fact, I would argue Dark Knight was more realistic (nothing Batman uses in those movies is really that far-fetched in terms of technology) and plenty of dark and gritty. I haven't seen Watchmen, but I've read it probably a dozen times, and I wouldn't call Dr. Manhattan realistic in the least. Bubastis is possible these days, but I think we're a long way off from teleporting a psychic squid into the middle of New York and frying the brains of everyone in the city.
And how much darker or grittier is Watchmen? Nudity? Swearing? That makes it dirtier, not grittier or darker. I would argue again that the themes of heroes falling from grace is better achieved in Dark Knight than Watchmen. The "heroes" in Watchmen were barely heroic to begin with, if they were at all. Dark Knight takes a genuinely decent, good man like Harvey Dent and destroys him, and Batman becomes a "villain" in the end thus destroying the symbol of justice that he was trying to become. What's not dark about that? The movie ends on a downer in oh so many ways.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133317
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:58pm | IP Logged | 7
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…teleporting a psychic squid into the middle of New York and frying the
brains of everyone in the city. •• The scene I always cite when people tell me they like WATCHMEN because
it's "realistic".
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Arc Carlton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009
Location: Peru
Posts: 3493
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 2:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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The backstory playing in my head, rightly or wrongly, is of him losing the
limb as the accidental consequence of a fracas with Superman, for which he
naturally bears a grudge. __________________________ I guess I'll have to re read it . I can't remember that scene .
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 3:09pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB - I still think that scene is more "realistic" (read: possible) than the creation of someone like Dr. Manhattan. I mean, the guy can travel through time and space with no effort, he's completely indestructible, and he can control basically all matter. YEAH, that's a real world superhero!
We'll have to disagree on our enjoyment of it, as I still do like the story - but I harbor no illusions that it's realistic. Captain America is realistic. Iron Man is realistic. Heck, these days those two look practically prophetic in their creation and abilities. A few more years and armored suits with genetically enhanced soldiers in them probably will be a part of the American arsenal. Guys with enough natural training and speed to catch a bullet in their bare hands? Not so much.
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Luke Styer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1515
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 10
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John Byrne wrote:
One of the things about previous "decades" of American superhero comics is that they tended to be approximately that -- decades. Fads
and fancies rarely lasted more than a few years, ten at the most. . . .
But how long has this "grim and gritty" stuff being going on? I was
already hearing that phrase being tossed around when I entered the
business professionally, thirty five years ago. |
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It sounds to me like a function of the lack of "turnover" in the modern readership. I've heard a few times that the expected "turnover" period used to be seven years.
I know I've been reading for a little more than 20 years and I'm at least a little younger than most of my comics-reading friends. I mean, what's the average age on this forum and how many of us have been reading comics since we were kids?
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Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 11
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Perhaps psychological realism is what these people mean. Even if that would be harder to ridicule. IMP.
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Luke Styer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1515
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| Posted: 14 November 2009 at 4:20pm | IP Logged | 12
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John Byrne wrote:
| The other dominoes don't topple until the first one has. |
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Watchmen wasn't the first "grim and gritty" domino. It wasn't even the first "grim and gritty" domino that Alan Moore toppled.
Joe Smith wrote:
| I hear what you're all saying, but, Dave Gibbons poured SO much intoevery page on that thing, I have a hard time calling it overrated. |
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The art in Watchmen absolutely isn't overrated, but people seem to rate the writing above the art.
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