Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 21 Next >>
Topic: Dick Giordano regrets "Grim and Gritty" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
John Byrne
Avatar
Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133318
Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:33pm | IP Logged | 1  

I have often pointed to the Holocaust as proof of why there will never be
"Peace on Earth". This was, after all, mostly regular White guys killing
regular White guys. If ever there was a totally, utterly, indefensibly fake
prejudice, it's anti-semitism.

(And, yes, I am aware that people other than Jews died in the Holocaust.)

Back to Top profile | search
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
Posted: 18 November 2009 at 11:10pm | IP Logged | 2  

 Brad Krawchuk wrote:
Look at Charles Manson - the guy is a loon, but did he kill anyone? Notdirectly. He had others do the work, while he called the shots.


The difference is that Manson directly took part in the conspiracies to kill the LaBiancas and all those at the Tate home.  He was involved in the planning of the crime, and specifically ordered his followers to commit murders.  That's quite different than the Holocaust deniers you mentioned, who spread vile, hateful and prejuducial thought but (to the best of my knowledge) do not order their followers to kill anyone.

Ordering someone to commit violence is rightly illegal, but the banning of objectionable ideas is a dangerous precedent.  


Back to Top profile | search
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:06am | IP Logged | 3  

I thought they were in prison for suggesting and encouraging people to commit violence. Like I said, it was my understanding that they were actively engaging misguided youth and directing them towards crime. 

If that's not the case, then I stand corrected.

As for banning their works - I will amend my poorly worded earlier post. I think if the work itself is calling for violence - like if someone wrote a book proclaiming all non-Catholics to rise up against the church and rape/kill/mutilate Catholics, I would HOPE that book wouldn't see widespread circulation and promotion. 

If, on the other hand, someone was writing that as a satire, or if they believed it but they didn't directly say to do it, they just hypothetically discussed it, then I would say there's no reason not to publish it. I might not like it, I might not agree with it, but it's free speech.

Again, my understanding about the Holocaust deniers wasn't just that they denied the Holocaust - hell, I'd love to be able to read a book that seriously tries to explain where, if not death camps, 6 million Jews suddenly disappeared to (UFO's? Secret underground cities?) - but that they were actively encouraging violence. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:24am | IP Logged | 4  

I'm hardly an expert on this, but my understanding is that Zundel has been put on trial (in Canada and Germany) for denying the Holocaust, not for actively inciting violence (eg, directly telling his followers to harm Jews).  Likewise, Irving's imprisonment in Austria was on the grounds of "trivializing the Holocaust" not for directly inciting violence.  From what I gather, the laws in Germany and Austria take the position that denying the Holocaust constitutes indirectly inciting violence against Jewish people, but to me that's too far a reach. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:45am | IP Logged | 5  

You know, I can't say I agree with being put on trial in a free and democratic society just for having an idea. I think there are better, more academic ways to attack and dispel ignorant beliefs such as the ones Holocaust deniers hold. 

The problem, I think, with banning works by these men and holding them on trial in a legal sense, is it really inhibits the ability of people who are rational, compassionate beings to fight point for point the garbage they come up with if those points aren't known.

I'd love to say so and so is wrong about x, and here's my proof. Unfortunately, because so and so is banned, I don't know the value of x.

At least with something like 300, or Watchmen, or Dark Knight, we can all look at the work in question and judge it based on it's merits, whether we like the work or not. Dark Knight hasn't been banned because of the way it portrays Superman, so we can look at it and measure that representation of the Man of Steel against appearances prior to and since to gauge whether or not the one in Dark Knight is appropriate. 

We can't do that with books that have been banned, can we? And as such, are we really just giving them more power through myth than they deserve in reality?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 6  

A work like "Mein Kampf" is virtually impossible to find in Norway. As a Master's student I had access to the specialty libraries of the humanities department (which includes History) at my univeristy and not even there was it possible to find a copy. But even in the 90s it only took 5 minutes to find an e-text copy on the net.

I can understand the urge to ban that book, just bury it completely, - in fact it made me physically sick just to read it - but there is one REALLY bad consequence of that: people no longer know what it says.

For all its hatred, the book sets down with remarkable clarity an explanation of the nature of the racist, fascist, "aristocratic" and spiritual beliefs of Hitler and the Nazis.  I know that Albert Rosenberg was the chief ideologue of the movement, but Hitler truly deconstructs racism with perfect clarity (and then declares it good. Shudder. ) He reconciles what to many seem like contradictions in racism. 

How, for instance can a white aryan racist who didn't have the mental faculties or moral self-discipline to finish high school declare himself intellectually and morally superior to jews or blacks who are doctors, lawyers, physicists and great intellectuals?  Hitler does it by declaring the necessity of spiritual justification in a christian context and interpreting it in light of the aristocratic principle. And if you accept his premise (which one shouldn't) it all seems to make sense.

But as a result of modern ignorance about the actual views of Hitler and the Nazis, people who in many ways share the less obviously evil views of Hitler construct a false model of  what they think naziism MUST have been and use that to hammer away at the very same people that the Nazis attacked.

Hitler gets referred to as a socialist (in the marxist sense) and he most assuredly was not.

Hitler gets referred to as an atheist, and only the truly ignorant could leap to that conclusion.

Hitler and his ilk are presented as being "inspired by" Darwin. When in fact he was inspired by Social Darwinism (which is neither socialist nor darwinist) and he was in fact livid that the pope and the catholic church had abandoned strict creationism in favor of a more darwinist view.

Et cetera.  So in banning "Mein Kampf" (by law or in practice) we have made it easier for components of Hitler's ideology to stay alive and even thrive.  If we had spent the last 65 years discussing, examining and demolishing the text in univeristy philosophy courses or on the public stage instead of ignoring it and hoping it would go away, we might have been better off.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 12:56am | IP Logged | 7  

Banning isn't a solution, but the wider problem remains, how do you counter ignorance when the general population have proven they aren't interested in education, and mainstream forms of entertainment only reinforce such ignorance and warped ideas?

How do people discern what is right and what is wrong in a world where even online sources of information such as Wikipedia can often be mistake-laden thinly-veiled propaganda?
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 1:07am | IP Logged | 8  

Knut - I don't think I always agree with you, that would be absurd, but even when I don't I know I love the way you methodically and rationally explain your perspective. In this instance I must thank you yet again for saying something I believe far more succinctly and eloquently than I could manage. 

Koroush - you counter ignorance by teaching. If the general population isn't interested in education, teach the ones who are and wait patiently for the rest to be ready and willing to learn. Don't force ideas onto people - just wait until they're ready to ask questions and be there when they need you. 
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 
Lars Johansson
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 June 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 6113
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 3:04am | IP Logged | 9  

How, for instance can a white aryan racist who didn't have the mental faculties or moral self-discipline to finish high school declare himself intellectually and morally superior to jews or blacks who are doctors, lawyers, physicists and great intellectuals?

He was neither white or very aryan since he was a Jew. (Removed part where I mostly agree with Knut, so itt is unnessecary to comment.)

Hitler gets referred to as a socialist (in the marxist sense) and he most assuredly was not.

But the other ones were not much more fun.

So in banning "Mein Kampf" (by law or in practice) we have made it easier for components of Hitler's ideology to stay alive and even thrive.  If we had spent the last 65 years discussing, examining and demolishing the text in univeristy philosophy courses or on the public stage instead of ignoring it and hoping it would go away, we might have been better off.

It is not banned. They are not sure who owns the Scandinavian copyrights. I have a copy, it's in Swedish and includes for some reason pictures from the Olympic Games  -33. That publisher sold it to someone. I don't think it belongs in university courses, at least I wouldn't attend a Mein Kampf course, that's just me, but let's say the professors don't want it, that could be why it's not there (?).



Edited by Lars Johansson on 19 November 2009 at 3:05am
Back to Top profile | search | www e-mail
 
Ian M. Palmer
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 1342
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 3:42am | IP Logged | 10  

This is what I enjoy the most when it comes to discussing "mature" comic stories. If you point out how unrealistic, inaccurate and even downright deceptively propagandist they are, the usual retort is "it's just a story" or "it's just a comic".

At the same time if you point out that comics are becoming too serious and realistic, then people will insist that this is completely fine and natural, as comics have evolved to become "more realistic" and have "something important to say".

The end result is a work of often highly skewed fiction masquerading as social and political commentary

Only if you do take your political education from comics. It's possible to say something important independently of giving a precsie historical account, and most importantly, as others have been saying, don't believe everything you read.

Stories are just stories, even if you have a low opinion of people who say so. Stories have two qualities: one is that THEY ARE NOT TRUE, and the other is that they can help us enjoy thinking.

When we read Hitler, we don't read The Truth, we read what Hitler thought. How can you condemn ignorance (as you have), and then favour censorship (which you have)?

Certain categories of people should be protected from certain categories of knowledge, children being the obvious example. The rest of us should be free to know what we can know.

IMP.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1373
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 4:30am | IP Logged | 11  

<<What allows Inglorious Basterds to shown as a popular movie, butrestricts Holocaust deniers from publishing their thoughts withimpunity?>>

Inglorious does not even try to pretend it is anything other than a work of fiction.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
Posted: 19 November 2009 at 5:04am | IP Logged | 12  

Most people know the true story of WWII, possibly because we've seen it a billion times in a billion ways over the past 50 years, so it is unlikely Inglorious Basterds would ever be misinterpreted as fact. I also give credit to Tarantino as he has never remotely claimed the film to be accurate, as opposed to our old friend Zack Snyder who claims that 300 is 90% accurate.

Inglorious Basterds is also about killing Nazis, which is considered morally fine by society. Were Inglorious Basterds a glorified tale about Nazi freedom fighters righteously killing Jews and Allied soldiers, set to stirring music and with big-name actors, there would be public outcry. Much the same as if there were any recent mainstream movies which glorified the Taliban or Al Qaeda, or made child-killing seem like a cool thing to do for example.

These are all determined by society's morality, not necessarily by censors or politicians. Politicians in particular reflect societal morals and not vice versa, since politicians support anything which is popular, even if it is wrong. This is why most politicians do not have the guts to legalize euthanasia or abortion for example, because mainstream morality makes these things unacceptable, not logic.

My point is not about encouraging censorship. My point is that society, through its own morality, seems to be spiraling into a pattern whereby basic morality, the difference between right and wrong, fact and fiction, is being blurred. Grim and gritty is both symptomatic of this spiral, and also an enabler in a way, by reinforcing the same negative messages over and over.

 Ian M. Palmer wrote:
Stories are just stories,

I have demonstrated several times that it is not simple, even for relatively intelligent people, to distinguish between fact and fiction. Whom do you turn to for facts when as I note, the most popular source of facts online for example is Wikipedia? Do we turn to Herodotus? Do we turn to reviews written by people like me? Who becomes the ultimate authority when information is being user generated?

A story is not just a story, a story can fashion mainstream morality, it can be used to glorify undesirable behavior. Especially when the people selling these stories often claim them to be true, hence the Zack Snyder quote I provided.

I wish I could have the faith Brad has in being able to counter ignorance with teaching. When the ignorant become the teachers, what then? How do we prevent an entire generation learning their politics from Alan Moore, and their ancient history from of Frank Miller? Of course people shouldn't be learning these things from comics and movies, but they are.

Censorship is not the answer, but then neither is simply asserting that everyone somehow knows the difference between right and wrong, fact and fiction, because I don't see evidence of this.
Back to Top profile | search e-mail
 

<< Prev Page of 21 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login