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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:40pm | IP Logged | 1
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Most stories are warped to fit the writer's agenda - the writer is the writer, after all!
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 2
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Pardon me for drawing a line between writers who know what they're talking about and those making up pure bullshit to promote their agenda, then.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 8:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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The producer of the film 300, Mr. Zack Synder said this about 300, from this interview:
QUOTE:
| The events are 90 percent accurate. It's just in the visualization that it's crazy. A lot of people are like, "You're debauching history!" I'm like, "Have you read it?" I've shown this movie to world-class historians who have said it's amazing. They can't believe it's as accurate as it is." |
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Really does help the average person distinguish fact from fiction, and warped morality, no? Perhaps Mr Synder overlooked criticisms from real historians, such as this one:
QUOTE:
| History is altered all the time. What matters is how and why. Thus I see no reason to quibble over the absence in 300 of breastplates or modest thigh-length tunics. I can see the graphic necessity of sculpted stomachs and three hundred Spartan-sized packages bulging in spandex thongs. On the other hand, the ways in which 300 selectively idealizes Spartan society are problematic, even disturbing.....this moral universe would have appeared as bizarre to ancient Greeks as it does to modern historians |
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All writing has an agenda, even if it is subconscious. I agree that it is a failing of our education system that comicbooks like 300 and V for Vendetta are now being championed by the masses based on the warped morality they represent, but this doesn't excuse them entirely.
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 18 November 2009 at 8:30pm
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 8:30pm | IP Logged | 4
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Miller is NOT one of my favourite writers, in fact I'd be hard pressed to find anything I like by the man outside of his Daredevil and Batman:Year One, and a few Sin City stories. Dark Knight was good for what it was, but if I had to read a "grim and gritty" tale of that era I'd take Watchmen over it any day.
That having been said...
(God help us all I'm defending the guy who wrote All-Star Batman and Robin)
... it's totally his prerogative to make up pure bullshit to do whatever he wants with it in a comic.
It's up to the writer to write what they want. Bullshit, a thorough analysis of facts with research cited, a tragic love story set against a backdrop of the Trojan War fought on a moon in the Alpha Centauri system before aliens brought the story to Earth, whatever. It's writing - someone can write anything they please.
It's incumbent upon the reader to assimilate the information, determine whether it's sound, or whether it meets the intended purpose, and then whether or not they like it.
Does anyone disagree that most of what Miller writes these days (and, let's face it, a lot in days gone by) is touched by a sense of misogyny? That it's violent, dark, often hyper-masculine and juvenile? Heroes are tortured beings, villains are evil cartoons, anything that's traditionally viewed as good is corrupt, and the only sure thing is death? Women are for sex and betrayal, unless they're psycho-assassins themselves - in which case they're for sex, betrayal, and killing.
Come on. It's Frank Miller. You get what you pay for.
"300" isn't historically accurate? It's full of a bullshit agenda? Gee, totally not what I'd expect from the guy who wrote Superman as a douche, the Goddamn Batman as psycho jerk, and Wonder Woman as a man-hating uber bitch. He took the Spirit and betrayed the core of the character despite being friends with and being mentored by Will Eisner. The guy has no scruples.
Having said that - he can write what he pleases, and if people like it, that's their problem.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 8:34pm | IP Logged | 5
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What determines that Frank Miller can do as he pleases, yet also allows Hitler's Mein Kampf to be restricted from sale. What allows Inglorious Basterds to shown as a popular movie, but restricts Holocaust deniers from publishing their thoughts with impunity?
The answer is morality. As a society we make moral choices every day in terms of what we do and don't allow. I don't agree with censorship, but I also don't agree with glorifying historical perversion as pseudo fact, especially given the target audience is generally not equipped to make important distinctions.
I should add, it was the Nazis themselves that used warped history to successfully peddle the notions of Aryan purity and the debasement of Jews and Slavs to the general populace. They presented much of this in the form of popular media, such as movies and glamorous posters and artwork. It's ridiculous to think that popular media has no impact beyond the superficial.
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 18 November 2009 at 8:38pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 8:54pm | IP Logged | 6
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…yet also allows Hitler's Mein Kampf to be restricted from sale. •• Amazon has it in English, German and "the Official Nazi translation".
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4620
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 7
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Koroush Ghazi wrote:
| What determines that Frank Miller can do as he pleases, yet also allowsHitler's Mein Kampf to be restricted from sale. What allows IngloriousBasterds to shown as a popular movie, but restricts Holocaust deniersfrom publishing their thoughts with impunity? |
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Mein Kampf is illegal in German and Australia and several other countries, but is readily available in the United States and Canada. Holocaust denial is illegal in Germany and several other European countries, but again not in the US or Canada. If you agree with the laws restricting either of these things, then you do agree with censorship in some cases.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 8
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My point was that while I don't agree with any laws restricting publication or sale of any material, I also don't agree with the glorification of distorted moral messages in mainstream media. That is the definition of propaganda. I don't entirely hold Frank Miller or Alan Moore to blame, as they can hardly have predicted how popular some of their creations have become. But the underlying messages in these creations - the anti-authoritarianism, the glorifying of violence, the bending of history to tell certain moral tales, are all undesirable in my opinion. That super heroes in particular have fallen prey to this agenda is even worse, because their symbolism goes far beyond entertainment value. Superman for example stands for an ideal. Pervert the Superman and you have perverted the ideal.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 9
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Holocaust denial is, in fact, something that is generally illegal in Canada. People like holocaust deniers Ernst Zundel and Nazi-sympathetic author David Irving have not only had publications banned, but they have been banned from speaking in Canada because they promote hate.
And rightfully so, as they openly declare and promote violence and intolerance to people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds.
However, Mein Kampf is legal because it is an historical document. In its time, it was a bestseller the world over, and as something of a history buff I enjoy the idea that I can access such material because of my very real curiosity and fear about a world that could read and absorb that book and DO NOTHING while Hitler rose to power and pretty much did EXACTLY what he said he was going to do.
I think it best if we're going to speak jargon like "Never Again" ad nauseam we should probably understand how the roots of evil and genocide take hold, don't you?
As for glorifying distorted moral messages in mainstream media, which morals and which distortions are we discussing?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 10
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Holocaust denial is, in fact, something that is generally illegal in Canada.
People like holocaust deniers Ernst Zundel and Nazi-sympathetic author
David Irving have not only had publications banned, but they have been
banned from speaking in Canada because they promote hate. And rightfully so, as they openly declare and promote violence and
intolerance to people of different ethnic and religious backgrounds. •• Careful! Vile and detestable as these people are, once you hand the
government that sword, there is no way to stop it swinging. Start by
surrendering one or two rights, and suddenly you'll be wondering where
the rest of them went.
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Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 11
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I understand the idea that it's a slippery slope, JB, but I think in certain cases where there's clear evidence that someone has called for others to cause society harm, it is important for society to defend itself.
My best understanding, which others are free to challenge if they have other facts, is that these two men are akin to people like David Koresh, or Randy Weaver in Ruby Ridge. Maybe they haven't gotten to the point of killing people themselves, but they openly recruit and influence others to cause damage, spread racial violence, and harm people who aren't white, straight, etc.
Look at Charles Manson - the guy is a loon, but did he kill anyone? Not directly. He had others do the work, while he called the shots. From what I know, the two Nazi-sympathizers that I mentioned haven't been responsible directly for deaths, but they have been responsible for promoting others to commit such crimes.
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Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
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| Posted: 18 November 2009 at 10:26pm | IP Logged | 12
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Brad Krawchuk wrote:
| I think it best if we're going to speak jargon like "Never Again" adnauseam we should probably understand how the roots of evil andgenocide take hold |
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Ignorance. That's one aspect of how the roots of evil and genocide take hold.
The other aspect is how we treat the presence of ignorance - whether we feed and nurture it with misinformation and propaganda, or counter it with something more intelligent.
Whether you get someone to swig down a big glass of the Kool Aid, or whether that Kool Aid is carefully blended into the drinking water of the general population and the effect is exposed over time is only different in terms of how long it takes for craziness to take hold.
As I said, the Nazis used popular culture to take an otherwise rational and advanced populace and capitalize on their ignorance, economic problems and innate hatred with messages of warped morality. The Nazis twisted often noble ideals, such as Neitzche's goal of Ubermensch, into a call for racial purity, and they did this through popular media.
Yes I know it all sounds melodramatic and hardly equates with precisely what Miller is doing, but the effect is much the same. A modern population lacking in knowledge, shown reinforcing messages and stereotypes that everyone in power is corrupt, that all authority should be rejected, that the ends justify the means - whether in comics, movies (or movies made from comics), in music and in books - is bound to come to believe that this is reality in the absence of facts and reason.
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Topic Closed)
