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Topic: Dick Giordano regrets "Grim and Gritty" (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Jason Schulman
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 1  

Pym calling Richards a "bitch"? Oh yeah, that's in character...sigh...
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Michael Todd
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 2  

In my view Henry Pym hasn't been in character since they made him a wife beater, that isn't the Ant-Man, Giant-Man, Goliath I knew.
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 3  

I read that issue recently. I was disappointed. I believe that Dan Slott is better than that.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 4  

Ian, I think the importance of DKR has been exaggerated beyond belief. Were the review written in 1987, I would understand, as back then DKR was indeed a major shift and got the fanboys truly frothing at the mouth. But to read a review in 2007 that makes DKR sound like a prophetic respectful genius is simply gushing in my opinion.

As for 300, I never wrote a review, nor claimed it was one, I specifically said I wrote a critique, which is something entirely different. 300 is a great example of oversimplified politicization. Miller takes a historical event, and twists the facts entirely to give the story a political and moral context (freedom from tyranny!). In doing so he makes the Spartans a freedom-loving race of people, and the Persians a perverse dictatorial and despotic killing machine.

My critique explains why this is ridiculous. First and foremost the Spartans held and ritually abused their Helot slaves, whereas the Persians forbade slavery. The Spartans used to hunt unarmed slaves (not wolves) as a coming of age. Even in their own time, the Spartans were considered barbaric fanatical killers - essentially the Taliban of their time - and were also into ritual abuse of young boys and other perversions. Yet Miller, obviously wanting to craft a tale of freedom vs. despotry, doesn't care about annoying minor points of history like this. Why let facts get in the way of generating a faux morality tale?

The end result is that 300 is now a firm fanboy favorite, and I've seen young people posting seriously on Internet forums saying they want to follow Spartan ideals, or that we should thank the Spartans for ensuring the freedoms we enjoy today, etc. That's the danger of comicbook politicization. Widespread historical, political and economic Ignorance is fertile ground for misshapen ideals to grow, with 300, DKR, Watchmen, V for Vendetta and other such "mature" comics providing the seeds for these warped views.

Further, 300 being released at a time when the US was waging a war in the Middle East and seriously considering invading Iran is only a coincidence if you have no historical or political knowledge. Hollywood know exactly how to cash in on real-world circumstances.

And for the record, yes Persian is an actual ethnic group. I won't get it into here, but if you are interested a quick search on Google will confirm the significance and history of this ethnicity.
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Adam Hutchinson
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 5  

I liked those issues of Mighty Avengers and wouldn't describe them as grim or gritty.
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Charles Valderrama
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:22pm | IP Logged | 6  

Haven't read a decent Marvel comic since the 90s. Grim and gritty storytelling
sure did go overboard!!! Thank goodness for back issues and essentials!!!!

-C!
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Ian M. Palmer
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 3:04pm | IP Logged | 7  

Koroush: As for 300, I never wrote a review, nor claimed it was one, I specifically said I wrote a critique, which is something entirely different.

The Free Online Dictionary defines "critique" as a "critical review". So does the definition you point to.

 300 is a great example of oversimplified politicization. Miller takes a historical event, and twists the facts entirely to give the story a political and moral context (freedom from tyranny!). In doing so he makes the Spartans a freedom-loving race of people, and the Persians a perverse dictatorial and despotic killing machine.

My critique explains why this is ridiculous. First and foremost the Spartans held and ritually abused their Helot slaves, whereas the Persians forbade slavery. The Spartans used to hunt unarmed slaves (not wolves) as a coming of age. Even in their own time, the Spartans were considered barbaric fanatical killers - essentially the Taliban of their time - and were also into ritual abuse of young boys and other perversions. Yet Miller, obviously wanting to craft a tale of freedom vs. despotry, doesn't care about annoying minor points of history like this. Why let facts get in the way of generating a faux morality tale?

It's a work of fiction.

The end result is that 300 is now a firm fanboy favorite, and I've seen young people posting seriously on Internet forums saying they want to follow Spartan ideals, or that we should thank the Spartans for ensuring the freedoms we enjoy today, etc. That's the danger of comicbook politicization. Widespread historical, political and economic Ignorance is fertile ground for misshapen ideals to grow, with 300, DKR, Watchmen, V for Vendetta and other such "mature" comics providing the seeds for these warped views.

Silly people will always read something

Further, 300 being released at a time when the US was waging a war in the Middle East and seriously considering invading Iran is only a coincidence if you have no historical or political knowledge. Hollywood know exactly how to cash in on real-world circumstances.

I didn't say it was coincidence, I said that your suggestion that attacking Iran was its purpose seemed implausble to me. Do you seriously deduce - or even think it likely - that I could have no historical or political knowledge? This is what I mean about partiality. I can understand why you might be biased, but your personal investment might make you write things which are sillier than you really are.

And cashing in is very different from having an agenda against.

And for the record, yes Persian is an actual ethnic group. I won't get it into here, but if you are interested a quick search on Google will confirm the significance and history of this ethnicity.

I was interested enough to ask, yes.

I'm not likely to defend any hostility toward Iran or most other places, and I'm certainly not a fan of bombing anyone, let alone the cradle of civilisation, back to the stone age (and I know that was Iraq, not Iran, but I think in the popular mind and in whatever political ambitions there might be to turn opinion against Iran, the two might be conflated); I just thought your critique was no more balanced than the review you criticised.

I also like Herodotus, without necessarily regarding him as accurate.

IMP.



Edited by Ian M. Palmer on 18 November 2009 at 3:05pm
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Koroush Ghazi
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 8  

This is what I enjoy the most when it comes to discussing "mature" comic stories. If you point out how unrealistic, inaccurate and even downright deceptively propagandist they are, the usual retort is "it's just a story" or "it's just a comic".

At the same time if you point out that comics are becoming too serious and realistic, then people will insist that this is completely fine and natural, as comics have evolved to become "more realistic" and have "something important to say".

The end result is a work of often highly skewed fiction masquerading as social and political commentary - a sheep in wolves' clothing. You mention Herodotus, and I would contend that he is just as guilty of this, but the difference is that in his time it was normal for the line between fact and fiction to be extremely blurred.

To return the thread to its original purpose, and to close out my commentary, I simply wish we could go back to a time when distorted morality, ultra-violence and "politically aware" storylines were not the mainstay of comics. Let Frank Miller and his friends keep producing Dark Knight Returns, 300, Sin City and a host of other distorted realities for those who salivate over such things, but let's get Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, the Fantastic Four, Avengers and so forth back on track with good stories set firmly in fictional worlds sending out a message of hope and heroism.
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Arc Carlton
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 9  

Notice how most current Marvel superhero comics have either a T+ or PARENTAL ADVISORY rating. Heck, even their A rated titles (which are supposed to be for ages 8 and up) often contains cuss words (like Hank Pym calling Reed a "bitch" in Mighty Avengers).

_____________________

The "bitch" word comes from Mighty Avengers 25 , which is an A title. What's really funny is that T+ or Parental Advisory titles seem to have more censorship that the A books. In a T+ book like Daredevil you get "son of a @*%$" all the time , you never get to read a proper "son of a bitch" .

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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 10  

If you point out how unrealistic, inaccurate and even downright deceptively propagandist they are, the usual retort is "it's just a story" or "it's just a comic".

...

I've never seen or heard anyone describe Miller's "300" the same way people talk about Spiegleman's "Maus," Marjane Satrapi's "Persepolis," Joe Sacco's "Palestine," or Craig Thompson's "Blankets," all of which are graphic novels or comics that are reality based. BTW - with the exception of "300," which I've never read, every one of those books is amazing. Sacco's "Palestine" is one of the coolest books I've ever read regarding the Middle East.

Anyway, most people I know lump "300" in with Gladiator, Braveheart, Dances with Wolves, Saving Private Ryan, and other "historical fiction" movies that take place in "real" places and may include "real" people, but that nonetheless aren't historically accurate or factual because they're meant to be entertainment, and they're tooled to tell a particular story using those settings and those characters.

If people are getting their history from "300," then that's not a failing of that movie or book, that's a failing of critical thinking and liberal education. How about instead of being insulted that Persians are misrepresented (from 3000 years ago!) we work on having science and literature taught in public schools instead of Creationism and the Bible?



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Arc Carlton
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 6:35pm | IP Logged | 11  

If people are getting their history from "300," then that's not a failing of that movie or book, that's a failing of critical thinking and liberal education. How about instead of being insulted that Persians are misrepresented (from 3000 years ago!) we work on having science and literature taught in public schools instead of Creationism and the Bible?

_________________________

It's sad, but sometimes everything a person knows about history comes from the movies...

When I went to see Inglourious Basterds with a friend, a guy that's in college studying psychology asked me if Goebbels was real or just a fiction character created for the movie...

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Martin Redmond
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Posted: 18 November 2009 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 12  

It doesn't matter if the reader is gulible or not. 300 is still warped to fit the writer's agenda.

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