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James Malone Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 340
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Posted: 15 November 2009 at 9:49pm | IP Logged | 1
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Actually, I think Koroush needs to brush up on good old American sarcasm. Cracked being a publication for pop culture along the same vein as The Onion for politics/world new, correct?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 15 November 2009 at 10:06pm | IP Logged | 2
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When I moved to the States, almost 30 years ago, now, one of my first discoveries was SECOND CITY TV, which I had somehow missed while living in Canada. My new (now ex-) wife thought the show was hilarious, and I agreed -- tho I told her it was not quite so brilliantly original as she thought. Most of those crazy "TV shows" on SCTV were almost dead on copies of standard Canadian fare. To demonstrate, I asked my parents, still back in Canada, to videotape one or two, and the episodes they picked entirely at random -- especially FRONT PAGE CHALLENGE -- were almost exactly as SCTV presented them in "parody" form.Which is a long way of say that while CRACKED is a satire magazine, sometimes it doesn't have to stretch too far. I have seen and heard some variant of all those comments out in the real world -- if comic conventions count as the real world.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1681
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Posted: 15 November 2009 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 3
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I do know that Cracked is a humorous publication, but if you read thereview (link in my previous post) it does seem reasonably legitimateand not just a parody. It may be irreverent but it is not sarcastic.
Also, in Australia we really know how to do sarcastic, no hinting about it at all like this American stuff!
Here'sa more serious review which gushes on about DKR and grim and gritty inmuch the same vein, making Frank Miller sound like the savior of comicbooks.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 16 November 2009 at 10:59am | IP Logged | 4
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SUPERMAN RETURNS wasn't gritty, it was creepy. I've seen zombie movies that creeped me out less. _______________________ I've never considered it creepy. It was just not as good as I thought it could be.
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Ian M. Palmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 1342
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Posted: 16 November 2009 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 5
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Here'sa more serious review which gushes on about DKR and grim and gritty in much the same vein, making Frank Miller sound like the savior of comicbooks. I don't think it does. It reads to me like a fair review. IMP.
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Koroush Ghazi Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 1681
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Posted: 16 November 2009 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 6
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Perhaps we didn't read the same review. The one I read seemed to be written by someone who thinks the earth revolves around Frank Miller.
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People often cite DKR as a masterpiece of superhero deconstruction -and rightly so - but it's executed with such an obvious love andaffection for the genre conventions that it's clear that Miller isn'ttrying to belittle the work of previous creators in the field. |
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I thought his portrayal of Superman for example belittled everything about that character, making him a simple Government puppet.
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...it's quite worrying to see how accurate Miller's dystopian predictions have turned out to be, 20 years down the line |
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Yes, because Dark Knight Returns is almost a mirror of our modern society. Not quite, DKR is more like a simple linear exaggeration of 1980's culture.
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...an acknowledgement that the traditional superheroic manner of dealingwith crime and criminals is ineffective and overly simplistic: thatsociety's ills can't be cured with a fistfight and a smug one-liner. |
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Precisely what is wrong with grim and gritty - all the adult-mimicking intrigue, pseudo-politics and anti-authoritarian crap that permeates modern comics. I have a degree in Economics and Political Science, I really don't need "politically aware" comicbook writers to espouse their often ill-informed beliefs to me in a medium I read for enjoyment. I won't even get into the absolute nightmare of a political and historically inaccurate mess Frank Miller's 300 graphic novel and subsequent movie is; I wrote a critique of it here.
Suffice it to say, I consider grim and gritty to be a lot like seeing a 12 year old with a cigarette in his mouth and a switchblade in his hand. It's not mature and savvy, it's disturbing and childish.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 5:24am | IP Logged | 7
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I have a degree in Economics and Political Science, I really don't need "politically aware" comicbook writers to espouse their often ill-informed beliefs to me in a medium I read for enjoyment.•• If we read Stan Lee's scripts for Marvel Comics of the "Silver Age" about the most politically oriented "message" we will find is "America good, Commies bad!" Stan understood that the stage from which he addressed his audience was not one for political diatribes, or much of anything else beyond simple, straightforward entertainment. (Probably just as well. When he did take a moment to ask us to think -- as with the Watcher's description of Galactus, for instance -- he sometimes presented a challenge to which much of his audience was not equipped to rise!)
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12708
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 8
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Stan's broad strokes about the "Reds" are dating (as would be most political stances, even presented quite generally), and yet can be dismissed ultimately as much as his one-time predilection for having sundry superheroes suddenly use Judo against larger opponents. I didn't mind recognizing Senator Kelly in the JB/Claremont X-Men story as a stand-in for Ted Kennedy. But both back then and now a quarter century later, it didn't truly matter. Politics can be in comicbooks, hopefully used intelligently, but its impact should be no more than Ben Grimm wearing a Beatle wig or Hank and Bobby visiting a beatnick Greenwich Village cafe. Just a colorful aside. Politics may be more "serious" than cultural fads, but, either way, great comicbooks transcend any one tale's trappings.
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2214
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 9
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Notice how most current Marvel superhero comics have either a T+ or PARENTAL ADVISORY rating. Heck, even their A rated titles (which are supposed to be for ages 8 and up) often contains cuss words (like Hank Pym calling Reed a "bitch" in Mighty Avengers). Notice how the October sales of most Marvel comics have taken a nose dive. Even the books written by their primadonna star creators have a huge sales hit. I'm curious to see if current Marvel books are now selling less then Marvel comics under the previous editorial regime.
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Arc Carlton Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009 Location: Peru Posts: 3493
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 10
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I have a degree in Economics and Political Science, I really don't need "politically aware" comicbook writers to espouse their often ill-informed beliefs to me in a medium I read for enjoyment. __________________________ That's a good point. Some writers don't have a clue, and yet insist on trying to include some kind of political context in the story. If you are going to do that you have to know what you're talking about.
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Ian M. Palmer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004 Posts: 1342
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 11
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Koroush, I think DKR is powerful and important, and the review we're talking about is broadly consistent with my views. Yet I don't think the Earth revolves around Frank Miller, and I don't like All-Star Batman And Robin. It seems to me that you're exaggerating. Your own review of 300 alleges that its purpose is to stir up hatred against present-day Iran. I understand your feeling, as a "Persian" (is that an ethnic classification, since Persia is no longer a political or geographical entity?), but I find the suggestion implausible - and the effect unlikely, since people susceptible to influence in that way will often be unaware that Iran was ever Persia. If you're accusing partiality in a review, for credibility's sake, you should perhaps write less partial reviews. IMP.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133318
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Posted: 17 November 2009 at 4:22pm | IP Logged | 12
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Notice how most current Marvel superhero comics have either a T+ or PARENTAL ADVISORY rating. Heck, even their A rated titles (which are supposed to be for ages 8 and up) often contains cuss words (like Hank Pym calling Reed a "bitch" in Mighty Avengers).•• "Sure, we're ALL AGES, as long as all the ages are over 40!"
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