| Author |
|
Derek Gardner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2008
Posts: 402
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Would anyone say Superman Returns was grim and gritty ?
----------------------------------
Dour--the antithesis to Donner's film.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Wayde Murray wrote:
| Hollywood has also been making action movies into superhero movies without costumes for a quarter century. |
|
|
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but regardless of whether the movie is a regular action movie or one based on superheroes, the general themes seem to remain the same. The hero is noble, sacrificing his time, effort and sometimes even life, to help others and defeat the bad guy.
Grim and gritty turns this on its head and often makes the hero the villain, or not much better than, and the villain the hero.
I don't take grim and gritty to mean that semi-realistic things happen. Just because a character dies for example, doesn't make a comic book grim and gritty in my opinion. It's how and why they die - the theme and morality of the book - and the way the characters play out, which defines grim and gritty.
Otherwise do we categorize the original Dark Phoenix saga as grim and gritty?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
My take on the original Dark Phoenix saga was that it was the opposite of grim and gritty. The only thing that was able to overcome the Phoenix was the goodness of humanity, personified in the love of Jean Grey and Scott Summers. Not superpowers, not alien armadas, not technology or force of arms, NOTHING could stop the Phoenix...except for true love. Jean's sacrifice was good and decent and noble and pure. There was nothing grim about it.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:06pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
As to what I think constitutes grim and gritty, the action movie is a good example of how things have changed. The indestructible action movie star moves from one contrived situation to another, the stakes growing as the obstacles become more overwhelming. He is ultimately a flat, uninteresting character, nothing more than Wiley Coyote without the humor. Superheroes used to be characters I liked and cared about. Their problems might range from something as small as how to keep Lana from learning their secret identity or how to explain to Gwen why they missed a date without mentioning they were fighting for their lives against the Lizard, or even problems as large as how to prevent Starro from enslaving humanity or how to stop the Skrull invasion force from reaching Earth. Superheroes used to be willing to sacrifice their short-term happiness or even their long-term safety in order to protect people like me and you. The grim and gritty heroes aren't giving up their happiness because they never seem to feel happiness. I don't envy them, I pity them.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
I've got a question:
Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Iron Man, Green Lantern etc have all become more angst-filled and conflicted than they were in the past. Maybe the more extreme example is psycho-ninja Batman, but Iron Man oppressed fellow superheroes and slugged it out with Cap, Superman is toughing it out with the Kandorians of New Krypton, Wonder Woman is banished from her homeland and ostracized by many, Green Lantern is in the midst of an epic struggle due to the vanity and arrogance of the Guardians, and Spider-Man is eating bad guys and being chummy with Satan.
Dark, grim, gritty. Characters dying, characters stabbing other characters in the back, characters have no hope.
What the Hell are their motivations for being superheroes?
If Batman isn't having some fun and satisfaction kicking ass, if Superman doesn't have a big old grin on his face because he's saving the day... WHY are they doing it?
I want an answer. It can't be because they're inherently good and they want to help people, and they like doing the right thing and being nice. Because if that were the case, they wouldn't be so bloody depressed all the time!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:39pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Wayde Murray wrote:
| Jean's sacrifice was good and decent and noble and pure. There was nothing grim about it. |
|
|
Which is exactly my point - just because the Dark Phoenix saga incorporates death and violence, doesn't make it grim and gritty. Grim and gritty to me is more about the perversion of superhero values and themes than simply "realistic" situations.
Brad Krawchuk wrote:
| It can't be because they're inherently good and they want to helppeople, and they like doing the right thing and being nice. Because ifthat were the case, they wouldn't be so bloody depressed all the time! |
|
|
This is one of the problems I have with grim and gritty, and the general trend in mainstream entertainment to portray figures of great power as always being inherently corrupt or perverse. It instills in people the belief that someone couldn't possibly just help people for the sake of it.
My question to people who love grim and gritty is: Why couldn't real heroes exist; people who sacrifice and toil for the benefit of the human race. They may get personal satisfaction from knowing they're making a difference. Why is this so hard to believe?
Grim and gritty as a theme has turned comics into a cynical exercise, where everyone is motivated by greed and revenge. This is why I stopped reading new comics.
/EDIT: misread your post as an actual question from your pov!
Edited by Koroush Ghazi on 15 November 2009 at 5:44pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
I was so angry that I didn't buy it LOL. I skipped that issue and came back for the next one. They were 2 issues for one over here, so my next issue was the Wendigo story. I wanted Jean back and didn't care about the Brocoli People. I wanted her to eradicate all of the Shiar. >:D
Edited by Martin Redmond on 15 November 2009 at 5:46pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Brad Krawchuk
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 5819
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Koroush - My question to you is: Why couldn't real heroes exist; people who sacrifice and toil for the benefit of the human race. They may get personal satisfaction from knowing they're making a difference. Why is this so hard to believe?
---
I believe you're asking me the same thing I'm asking all of you. I DO believe real heroes exist, and that people can act selflessly and for the inherent good of all just because.
But the heroes in today's comics sure don't seem to act that way - and they're fictional! So obviously, the writers don't believe it, much like Sam Raimi didn't believe Peter could make web-shooters and fluid, or the makers of FF didn't believe Dr. Doom could be a monarch or that people would buy a giant guy in purple.
It's circular reasoning, but it's the truth - Superman is Superman because he's Superman. He's the inspiration, the fearless leader, the best of the best. He's inherently good, because that's what Superman means - inherent goodness. Truth. Justice. The American Way.
So who's the guy in the books right now that is being called Superman, and what are his motivations? Because really he's just a guy who's not sure of himself, and who can't handle the pressure of being the one everyone else looks up to. So what's his deal?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:52pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
"My question to you is: Why couldn't real heroes exist; people who sacrifice and toil for the benefit of the human race. They may get personal satisfaction from knowing they're making a difference. Why is this so hard to believe?" It shouldn't be. But I don't think that's what Brad was saying. I inferred that he agrees with the point you're making. What I thought he meant by his statement is that by making the characters so grim and gritty, they've removed their ability to say the characters are doing this bc its the right thing or that they're real heroes...and that's the problem. They've left themselves with no justification for superheroes to exist (outside of just being "costumed adventurers" or the like). (ie. you and him are on the same page). Brad, am I right (if so, I also agree with you both!)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Doug Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 367
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:56pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Perhaps it was just simply that the superhero comic as a mass market entertainment had run its course. If I recall correctly, sales figures have been dropping steadily decade by decade for fifty years now.
Many folks in this thread have been implying that the shift in the industry toward an older audience has been responsible for the change in tone and the loss of market on the part of superhero comics.
But perhaps the shift in audience too is a symptom resulting from the fact that fewer and fewer children were reading comic books from the 1950s onward thanks to other entertainment options. By the 1980s, adults were thus a larger part of the audience and a certain amount of "grim 'n gritty" was inevitable given this audience and the more cynical zeitgeist in the wake of Vietnam and Watergate.
And that more or less marked the end of the life of superhero comics as a mass media entertainment. They had been constructed, explored, and deconstructed, and by the mid-1990s lacked enough of an audience to be especially relevant on a society-wide level. Just like Western movies before them, superhero comics had become merely a niche-entertainment with a smaller and more specialized audience. But the genre as a mass form died a natural death; it wasn't murdered and never would have survived even if there had be no "grim 'n gritty" trend.
Or to put matters another way, if the major companies were still cranking out kid-friendly comic books featuring noble, self-sacrificing heroes, I'd be willing to bet that most kids would still be ignoring them in favor of TV, the internet, and, above all, gaming. It's just that adult comic book conservatives like ourselves would be happier buying those books and the adults with crappy taste would be the ones who were SOL, rather than vice versa.
At least that's my stab at playing devil's advocate. Perhaps I'm just full of poop.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Koroush Ghazi
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 1681
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Yes sorry, I edited my post shortly afterward because I misread Brad's post the first time!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
|
| Posted: 15 November 2009 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
I want an answer. It can't be because they're inherently good and theywant to help people, and they like doing the right thing and beingnice. Because if that were the case, they wouldn't be so bloodydepressed all the time!
*****
Im not sure how being depressed and doing the right thing is a conflict. You can do the right thing and still be miserable. That how a lot of the classic Spider-Man stories ended.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Topic Closed)
