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Jeremiah Avery Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008 Location: United States Posts: 2431
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:57am | IP Logged | 1
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Here's a short, but interesting article featuring Giordano and talks about the negative direction he felt comics went in. Nice praise for JB's run on Superman. Enjoy!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:52pm | IP Logged | 2
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The real problem with "Grim and Gitty" -- or, as Dave Gibbons has observed, "glum" -- is that it became pretty much the only game in town. Marvel went thru a "monsters" craze in the 70s, but every title didn't become a monster title, and the Beast is pretty much the only casualty that remains from that period. But both Marvel and DC went All Grim, All the Time. When DC "darkened" Congorilla, I saw it as a sign of the Apocalypse.
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Jeremiah Avery Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2008 Location: United States Posts: 2431
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 3
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I can understand wanting to expand the readership base by writing stories for older readers (though I wouldn't call them all "mature") but what sort of asinine thinking was it to circle to proverbial wagons and reduce the stories that were bringing in new and younger readers? JB, was there any sort of effort to keep comics more open to the populace? Was the trend of pushing the writer/artist ahead of the character what contributed to the arrested development that exists today?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133324
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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Over the years, a few writers and artists have tried to swim against the tide - - as I did with GENERATIONS, for instance. In fact, when I did BATMAN & CAPTAIN AMERICA, which basically spawned G1 when Marvel and DC decided not to play nice any more, I said I hoped my book would be popular enough to create a new "trend" in comics -- FUN!I also said, tho, looking back on how "relevant" had spun down into "grim and gritty", that I expected if "fun" did catch on it would not be long before it became "goofy".
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Eric Lund Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 2074
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 5
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as long as the main comic audience is 30+ white males with warped perceptions of what woman are, comics will remain the same.
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Monte Gruhlke Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3303
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Posted: 10 November 2009 at 9:55pm | IP Logged | 6
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What - the grimming of Wendy, Marvin and Wonderdog recently in the Teen Titans wasn't a sign of the Apocalypse?
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Gene Best Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 October 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4598
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 12:20am | IP Logged | 7
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At the time, I enjoyed the grittier tone. Back in the mid-80's, The Dark Knight Returns, Batman: Year One, and Elektra: Assassin, were a breath of fresh air for my early 20-something sensibilities. My experience of it was that my comics understood me, and were changing with me. However, it started to feel like a one trick pony. It felt like everything was trying to be TDK ....
Brown Nose Moment: John Byrne comics have always reminded me of the first Star Wars film - accessible to all ages, fun, exciting, often provocative - the good guys winning was never in doubt, and getting there was a wonderful ride with plenty of twists/surprises. I enjoyed JB's work from my early teens through my 20's ... and now, on into my 40's.
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Michael Todd Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 September 2009 Location: United States Posts: 4115
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 1:19am | IP Logged | 8
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Eric Lund wrote:
QUOTE:
as long as the main comic audience is 30+ white males with warped perceptions of what woman are, comics will remain the same. |
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Hold on, what does being white have to do with it?
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Petter Myhr Ness Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 July 2009 Location: Norway Posts: 3908
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 1:50am | IP Logged | 9
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JB mentions the magic word - FUN. How I miss that.
I'll use The Batman as an example. I really like those stories from the 80ies that made him "grittier", like Year One and etc, but it's been 20 years of that same tune ever since. Bruce Wayne hasn't smiled in 20 years.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7787
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 2:57am | IP Logged | 10
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I think the benchmark to compare these things with would be Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Returns 2. The first was a refreshing look at the character. The second pretty much bastardised the characters and was a very unpleasant read (IMO). Robin is a hero. That DC were prepared to let THAT happen to him spoke volumes to me. in many ways, I felt that the original grim and gritty stuff was still focussed on building the characters and heroes. Somewhere along the line it became about knocking them down, making them the villains. Which leads to Civil War, which leads to Dark Reign. Which means it's been years since heroes have acted like heroes.
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Brad Krawchuk Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 June 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 5819
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 3:02am | IP Logged | 11
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Hold on, what does being white have to do with it?
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Same thing that being male and over 30 does. It's a very narrow group, so diverse representations of other genders, races, ages, and heck, I'd throw in sexual preferences, are really hard to come by.
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Carmen Bernardo Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3666
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Posted: 11 November 2009 at 6:03am | IP Logged | 12
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The way I see it, "dark and gritty" can fit some characters. The Batman looks good this way, with the nature of his battle against crime, his rogues' gallery and his own origins. Daredevil and, to a lesser extent, Spider-Man would be a similar case. However, I'm in agreement with many that it has been taken too far, especially with characters that don't normally lend themselves to such dark themes as Superman. It disturbs me that virtually all of the established superheroes today are written and portrayed in this manner. So much more so when you see Marvel and DC apparently backtracking with "kid-safe" alternatives. Comics are already much marginalized by their being restricted to DM outlets. The damage has been done. The question now becomes, "How long before it all comes crashing down and we have to rebuild it from scratch?"
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