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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 1
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John Byrne wrote:
| Again, here I go with the color it appeared on screen. |
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You and me both. But I seem to recall others here (I'm looking at you, Sam Karns) who can't accept what their eyes tell them.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14853
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 11:59am | IP Logged | 2
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Rendering Spider-Man in a red/black costume has been coming up more often lately. I picked up a 3.75" Spider-Man Hasbro figure that was done in red and black, and some of the recent Amazing Spider-Man arcs had him colored red and black. I also picked up a figure from the animated line that did Spider-Man in a really dark navy that looks almost black depending on the light.
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Dave Braun
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2009
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 3
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"Last time I looked, even the lit planes of a black sweater still look black in daylight."
The only time you are going to see any object, black or otherwise, as black is if there is no light reflecting off the object. When I look at my black jacket, I 'see' it as a black object because I know the color of the object is black, but the actual colors I am perceiving are not black. They are a mix of the black color of the object with the reflections of the colors of light from other objects around it.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133279
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 12:39pm | IP Logged | 4
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"Black" is not a single shade, either. Hanging in my living room is an Andy
Warhol artist's proof, a silk screen of Cologne Cathedral done in black on
black paper. It's the "dark side" of the exchange in OKLAHOMA -- "Does it
really have a team of snow white horses?" "One's like snow -- the other's
more like milk."From the real world, I assume no one would suggest the outfit being
modeled by this young lady is anything but BLACK… 
…yet, like Storm's original costume, it ranges thru shades of gray all the way
to white.
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Mike Farley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 5
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I'm sorry, I got distracted by something...what were we talking about?
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Dave Braun
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2009
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 6
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I also see plenty of red orange and yellow highlights on that outfit. If you put a colored gel on the lights, those white hotspots would be the color of the light, and the outfit would still read as black.
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Rich Rice
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 April 2008
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 2:50pm | IP Logged | 7
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A lovely illustration of Howard Pyle's elegant description of the Form Principle. There is no fixed form value. The form, all forms simply make a report on the conditions of light in relation to their molecular structure and the degree it absorbs and reflects light.
The half-light of her black costume is a gray. Which was my point from the beginning. Black forms have black half-lights and if you can make a gray work as the half-light for Spider-Man's costume, knock yourself out.
While reflected color is projected throughout the form, it is most visible in areas of shadow, relative to the strength and direction of those reflected (environment) colors.
The pink and yellow colors of the floor, ceiling and tile are reflected back into her suit, giving it color.
It is interesting to see comments about 'just don't get it', but the ONLY people not 'getting it' are in disagreement with your position. Just as there's 'no set rule', lots of wiggle room AND interpretation AND shorthand. But by god, there's only ONE way to interpret that wiggle room and shorthand of what Ditko has done, and by god, its black and red.
Or deep blue and red.
It is not freedom, if the only free choice is my choice. Have a nice day.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 8
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But by god, there's only ONE way to interpret that wiggle room andshorthand of what Ditko has done, and by god, its black and red.
---
Are you suggesting that it was left up to interpretation? I would think the artist had some intentionality.
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Koroush Ghazi
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Joined: 25 October 2009
Location: Australia
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 4:01pm | IP Logged | 9
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Doesn't the phrase "artistic license" cover the variations in highlighting used?
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Johan Vikberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
Location: Sweden
Posts: 188
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 10
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Please, people. The Spidey costume on Amazing Fantasy 15 is NOT red and black. The drawing has a fill of black, simplifying shadow and half-tone to one graphic statement. But that does not mean it's black. It means delineation of light and shadow been reduced.
That doesn’t make any sense. Are the ”blue” parts of the costume the only thing that lies in shadow? There’s no shadow on the red bits, and no shadow on the guy he’s carrying either. It doesn’t work.
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Johan Vikberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 August 2009
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 5:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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I guess Spider-Man is a special case because growing up, we all saw and played with Spider-Man action figures and costumes that were real and undeniably blue. After that, it’s harder to see the guy in the comics wearing black.
Conversely, we watched Superman movies and played with Superman toys where the hair was black. I even watched Hulk on TV with Lou Ferrigno with green hair.
But back to Spider-Man: I’m sure these toys were mostly Marvel licensed and in some cases approved. And I’m sure that if they had been made green instead of blue, they would have been withdrawn, as that is the wrong colour. Blue was nowhere seen as wrong enough to withdraw anything. On the contrary, it must have been seen as 100 % correct. What would have happened to any red-and-black merchandise? Was there ever any?
This is not the same as some nutcase thinking Super-Man has blue hair. An entire world has come to see Spidey as red and blue. We can’t just say they’re all fools. And surrounded by decades of toys and years of blockbuster movies, what kind of sense does it make to maintain that costume is ”actually” or ”really” black?
Edited by Johan Vikberg on 10 November 2009 at 5:48pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 10 November 2009 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 12
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Whenever this topic comes along -- as it does so often, it seems -- the
debate almost invariably settles onto Spider-Man. I suspect that, at least
at an unconscious level, the "blue brigade" goes there because, yes,
Spider-Man's costume is undeniably not black. Not any more, anyway.*
It's rather like picking the most extreme point of an argument in order to
"defeat" it. But it also overlooks the fact that there are those who insist
that Black Bolt's costume is blue -- despite the fact that there is nothing
about him that suggests black except his costume. And that kind
of thinking is what inspired me to start this thread in the first place. Is
T'Challa wearing a white costume in those panels in my original post?
Logic says no -- yet confronted with the same kind of color scheme,
there are those who have argued that Storm's original costume was,
indeed, white. That's how she ended up in a white costume in the
animated cartoon.There are none so blind. . . '
'
*It's not blue either, btw. The combination of hues that make the non-
red part of Spider-Man's outfit is the same as the one that makes
caucasian flesh, with a blue tone added. This is why, in the old days,
sometime a blue might get left off the appropriate plate, and suddenly
Parker had no pants on!
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