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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 9:22am | IP Logged | 1
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Showing muscular definition through fabric, sometimes even through metal armor, is part of the conceit of Superhero comics. It turns muscle into super-muscle, with the ability to defy logic. The same way that fabric clings to female anatomy in unusual ways. If a costume looks painted on, well, who are we to object. Sometimes that's part of the fun.
The problem isn't when the art is unreal, it's when it becomes too real. It removes the illusion that these are supermen and superwomen. You put Lou Ferigno in a baggy Superman costume and say he's Superman, he's still Lou Ferrigno in a baggy Superman costume. You strip him down and paint him Green, he's the incredible Hulk.
Christopher Reeve in a good, skintight Superman Costume was Superman. If George Reeves' Superman costume was a bit ill-fitting and the cape was awkward, he still managed to overcome it by force of personality, but you know that if they could they would have gotten him a costume as good as the one Christopher Reeve had.
Even Hollywood knows the power of illusion. Sometimes they don't trust or can't replicate comic book illusions, but they still know the value of illusion.
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 2
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I see the folds, wrinkles and stitches similar to the pouches and such. A diversion. Don't notice the lack of movement, action or dynacism, look at the detail!
Bleh!
You know, George Perez did both, and probably long before this became the problem it is today.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133571
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 3
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Even Hollywood knows the power of illusion. Sometimes they don't trust or can't replicate comic book illusions, but they still know the value of illusion.•• A very important point there. Much as I dislike the rubber bat-armor of the movies, I understand the thinking behind it. Until Sandy Collora made "Dead End", the image of Batman in a leotard was Adam West. The people making the Michael Keaton BATMAN movie wanted to get as far from that as they could. In so doing, they lost all kinds of important elements of the psychology of Batman {"He's just a guy in a leotard! Why can't we kill him??"} but at least the intent was not to diminish. That is the intent of this so-called "meta-fiction" approach. (And, sorry, but I see that phrase and I read "I'm a bad writer, but luckily I have a pretentious term I can hide behind.") "Deconstructionism". "Meta-fiction". Bull. In the end it's about tearing down other people's legends. And, as we all know, it's ever so much easier to destroy than it is to create.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133571
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 4
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You know, George Perez did both, and probably long before this became the problem it is today.•• And, like Neal, like Swan, like me(!) George thought about what he was drawing as much as how he was drawing it. And that's the key.
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John Peter Britton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 9129
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:26am | IP Logged | 5
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Maybe that's just what it needs more THOUGHT put into it!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133571
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 6
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Not more, perhaps. A lot of the problem springs from overthinking this stuff. A different kind of thinking is what's really needed!
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6025
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 7
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- In the end it's about tearing down other people's
legends. And, as we all know, it's ever so much easier to destroy than
it is to create.-JB
Imagine there was -no- Superman in Comics. Everything else to remain the same (Obviously you lose all his Cast)
Now imagine trying to pitch Superman as a concept in this Comicbook climate. He's a good guy, doing good, with no hang-ups.
Superhero's -were- deconstructed, torn down and all that was left were stubbled 'men' in leather and an axe to grind. Kids don't need to 'aspire' to be some person with a chip on their shoulder, life will grant them that!
The escapisim of Superheroes was ost as the Powers became the only defining thing left. Their 'characters' stripped away.
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 8
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I like seeing the wrinkles and stitching in the costumes
sometimes, so that the costumes don't look painted on the
body instead of a body wearing them
I think athletes are as close to superhero physiques as we
have in the real world and one time I saw an NFL cornerback
at his restaurant in his street clothes, my jeans had seams
and wrinkles but his looked painted on. Watch an NFL game
if not for the added padding those guys uniforms are tight.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6025
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 9
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But again Keith does this sort of miss the point? If we're sitting wondering how Superman's costume -really- works then have we not moved past Superman as entertainment?
Superman's costume is symbolic. It doesn't -make- Superman, Superman, he does and it's what he does that we are interested in, not who sewed his costume together, what the soles of his boots are made out of or why his cape seems to be more startch than fabric from time to time.
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Paulo Pereira
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006
Posts: 15539
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 10
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I agree, Keith. I don't think rendering wrinkles precludes grandeur, dynamism, etc. (for example, look at Mike Allred's Madman). It's just that some artists seem to go out of their way emphasize the wrinkles, etc. as if to draw attention to the humanity of the character underneath
As for Keith's point about football players; to me, they seem like superheroes in the flesh, at times. Look at stills of sports figures in action; there's no lack of dynamism or grandeur there.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 28 June 2009 at 11:07am
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Chad Carter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005
Posts: 9584
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 11
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There's more dynamism in this one move, one move out of hundreds of thousands this player will make in one season, than in all of Frank Quietly's artist ilk combined.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6025
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| Posted: 28 June 2009 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 12
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But again, a -Super-hero doesn't have to be all muscle. Reed Richard, Spiderman?
I think there's a little -more- at play than just how drawing wrinkles might effect Superman, or whomever.
It's how the character is treated. Are you looking at some dude COSPLAYing or Is it Superman? If you can't tell, then it lacks the Grandeur the character has.
edit-[Space missing between "Is" and "it"]
Edited by Darren Taylor on 28 June 2009 at 11:18am
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Topic Closed)
