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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 7:49am | IP Logged | 1
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Cortez: Don't forget that before Forever he appeared only in X-Men #1, #2 & #3 from 1991. Only one story arc. And he clearly was a character with secrets. We knew very little about him and should not read the Forever Cortez in the light of what Lobdell and others did with him after Claremont's departure.
Vinny: Personnaly i enjoyed the issue a lot. That's only a beginning, but i enjoyed it enough to write a review and read the issue 9 times. Of course Claremont may do better than this issue, it was a good start, but only a start. Yet it felt true to the 80s X-Men. So me reading it so many times may have more to do with me being an addict who missed his X-Drug for 18 years than with the actual qualities of this particular issue, but it was good and it was the X-Men that i grow up with in the 80s.
Next issue this week. I wonder if i will read it as many times.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 22 June 2009 at 8:06am
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 2
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Luckily it seems Claremont is still going to have Kitty
around 15 and I believe he's said he's going to write
most of the characters "younger" then they were portrayed
in other books, closer to their original ages. The
bustiere and new look seem to be from hagin with Gambit
Quote from Claremont (parentheses mine)
And then, pretty much for thanksgiving and Christmas,
looks like readers get their major dose of Grummet Arc2,
starring Colossus. (Here's a thought -- Remy figures, if
Kitty's going to hang with him, she has got to look like
a lady. Real life, real clothes, no more Little Ms
Fashion Chaos. Because -- don't you forget, at this point
in time, Kitty's still the de-facto "ward" of Courtney
Ross, who as I recall has yet to be outed(from an
Excalibur story where Kitty is separated from the rest of
the team and celebrates her 15th birthday btw, the
'outed' is in reference to the evil Sat-yr-9 pretending
to be Courtney Ross). She even owns/drives a Jag! 'Ro,
of course, loves all this: Kitty's stuck in "real"/grown-
up clothes while she gets to enjoy adolescent knock-about
fashions and hang with the dragon. Fun & Games to be had
by all!)
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Martin Redmond
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 June 2006
Posts: 3882
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 8:41am | IP Logged | 3
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I agree with Rick, it's not very original and it's pandering.
Edited by Martin Redmond on 22 June 2009 at 8:44am
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Rick Whiting
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Posts: 2227
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 9:00am | IP Logged | 4
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Thanos, often times those teenage characters have not been clearly stated as having grown to adulthood when a writer wants to portray them having sex. Then there is the tendency of some writers to suddenly age a teenage character into an adult within the span of one issue in order to tell more "adult" stories with those characters.
In Ultimate X-Men, Millar had the very grown up Wolverine sleep with Jean Grey, who was already established in either the actual comic or in interviews with Millar (or both) to be 17 years old. When fans online complained about Marvel having Wolverine sleep with an under aged teenage girl (and yes, I know the age of consent is 17 in many states), Marvel started saying that Ultimate Jean was 19 years old.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 5
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Good memory on that Mesmero issue, Thanos. I had forgotten about that. Still, I was a bit put when he called him that after decades. I suppose you could say the same for the other originals doing it, but they had grown up with him. They knew the teenage Cyclops.
I'm not praising the Kitty/Wisdom relationship, just saying that I thought it was rather strongly implied that they had sex. And I wouldn't say in a gratuitous
way. How appropriate one thinks the relationship was is another matter. IIRC, it was stated that Kitty was 10 years younger. At the time, though, I had the impression she was 18-19ish. Later on in the decade they made her younger again. Either that or Claremont in 2000. I think there was an issue back then that stated her age as 16.
QUOTE:
The worst example is the whole Jean/Logan thing. If it was said that during her time as Phoenix (in whatever version of that continuity), I could buy it as an aspect of her corruption. But he made her (retroactively) attracted to him the very first night they met, thanks to the new story in Classic X-Men#1. That just doesn't sound like the real Jean to me. I would have liked to check out this latest return, as I'm a fan of Tom Grummett, but seeing Jean fantasize about Logan in the very first page lost me right there. |
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I never bought the Classic 1 retcon either. We never saw Jean, Phoenix, whoever you call her give Logan
a second though.t It was all on his end, and he kept it to himself.
The movies and this newest cartoon have gotten it so wrong. When they first met, Scott's problems with Logan had nothing to do with Jean. He has no idea Logan is even that interested in Jean. Yet it's the entire foundation of his problems with Logan in the movies..
My understanding of Forever is that everything that happened before Claremont left still happened. It counts. If this is the case, I don't think the Jean/Logan stuff that I saw in issue 1 is good writing.
The comic Jean Grey appeared regularly in, post 1986, was X Factor. 68 issues of X Factor. Needless to say, that scene is not consistent with what we saw in that series.
That's something that should be built up to over a course of issues. Have Jean address the issues with Scott that Claremont has clearly had since X Factor 1 and move to the point with Jean/Logan that she becomes divided between the 2 men.
My impression is it's there from the beginning of issue 1 and I just don't think it's honoring what we saw back then. I mean if Claremont is going to honor anything other than what he seemed to be trying to do every time he got his hands on Jean and Logan back then.
Someone else was writing Jean Grey's character every month.
Yes, admittedly, I was always deadset against Jean/Logan. Yes, I always thought that Jean should be with Scott. But that's not my criticism here. It's Claremont's X Men to do with as he pleases. That's the entire point, so let him. I just think that if he's being truly respectful of what happened up until he left that he should have built up to that scene more slowly.
I guess with what happened to Logan that it might be moot, huh? Kinda makes me wonder why he'd even do that scene then.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 10:38am | IP Logged | 6
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To Claremont's defense, Wolverine DOES have an excuse to be familiar with the "Slim" nickname, which is continuity based and easily explainable, I think.While under Mesmero's mind control (Uncanny X-Men #111, JB's 3rd issue), Scott was called "Slim Summers". We can easily assume that either Wolverine just kept calling him that from time to time, based on this adventure, or he asked him about it while in Savage Land or on the Japanese ship or in Japan or wherever and found out the true origin. •• Wolverine spent his whole time under Mesmero's control chained up like a wild animal. Not a whole lot of time for friendly banter with "Slim". And as to Wolverine asking about it later -- seriously, can you really see Logan giving a rat's patootie?
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 10:42am | IP Logged | 7
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He may have heard it without asking. Particulary when Hank & co were around.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 22 June 2009 at 10:42am
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Stéphane Garrelie
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 August 2005
Location: France
Posts: 4226
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 10:47am | IP Logged | 8
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Also: Me too I am for Jean/Scott. In the Claremont/Byrne days my favorite X-Men were in this order: Jean, Scott, and only then Wolverine.
But Scott has not been Scott in a very long time. Actualy Logan is more like Scott used to be than Scott is. I hope Claremont will fix Scott in Forever.
And now that Logan is dead, maybe we can hope to see Jean in a few months with a fixed Scott.
For the record, Claremont considers that X-Factor #1 ruined Scott both as a character and a human being.
Edited by Stéphane Garrelie on 22 June 2009 at 10:59am
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Keith Thomas
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3082
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 11:08am | IP Logged | 9
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And don't forget in Inferno Jean merged Madyline Pryor's
"essence" (memories too I guess) into herself, maybe that's
somehow affecting Jean's thinking.
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Steve De Young
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3519
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 10
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In another thread I mentioned how important scenes
were sometimes lost, because Chris had already done them in his head,
so when he came to script the pages he wrote them as something else.
-------------------------------
This explains the one thing that always bothered me about Claremont's X-writing back in the old days. I was a fan of the books, but it bugged the heck out of me that he would just tell us things rather than showing them. Like just telling us that Storm and Jean were best friends. I can accept that, but I'll be damned if I can find the comics where they spent any time together to form this friendship.
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9704
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 11:22am | IP Logged | 11
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John Byrne wrote:
Here's a thing about Chris that used to make me crazy
when we were working together: he is in no way a slave to continuity, not
even his own. In another thread I mentioned how important scenes were
sometimes lost, because Chris had already done them in his head, so when
he came to script the pages he wrote them as something else. I grew to
dread the phrase "That's how I felt when I wrote it." It's the same thing with
characterization. He will write the characters as suits his stories, not the
stories as suits the characters. |
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And the main reason why I never connected to the book. I'd follow it if there
were artists on it I liked -- Cockrum, Byrne, Smith, Romita Jr. (until I couldn't
take the incomprehensible story anymore) -- but it wasn't a title I loved
like so many did, and that was my main reason. It was inconsistent, and the
characters served the plot rather than the other way around.
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Arc Carlton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 April 2009
Location: Peru
Posts: 3493
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| Posted: 22 June 2009 at 11:51am | IP Logged | 12
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I think everyone at Marvel are now against aging characters. Some characters, at least.
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Topic Closed)
