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Pascal LISE
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 July 2006
Location: France
Posts: 1111
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 8:04am | IP Logged | 1
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I see Lee as a catalyst, Kirby and Ditko creativity being the substances.
Like in chemistry, if the catalyst is missing, there's a lack of or no reaction
at all but without the substance the catalyst is useless.
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Jesus Garcia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 April 2007
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 2
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For an example of Ditko's abilities and contributions as a scripter I point you
to DC's 1978 Shade the Changing Man. Lots of echoes from his earlier work
in Spider-Man and Dr. Strange.
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Guests
Byrne Robotics Visitor
Joined: 01 October 2003
Posts: -26
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 3
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What do you reckon?
Robbie -
It's difficult to comment on hypothetical realities (your suggestions above) and real historical information that I am unclear on. I've read plenty of essays elsewhere and comments here at the JBF which indicate that things weren't what they (ideally) should have been in the creative and financial relationship between Lee/Kirby and Lee/Ditko. It would have been nice to have a win-win for everyone, the creators and the fans. But things are what they are. At the end of the day, I appreciate the contributions of all three gentlemen. I am not inclined to elevate one over the other in a Lee vs. Kirby or Lee vs. Ditko scenario. In some ways, I almost wish I had never learned about all the sad things that happened. It takes away some of the "magic" from the comics I grew up with as a kid. On the other hand, fantasy and fiction are created by real people. And the lives of real people (both the good and the bad) have a role to play in how all of us interact with the medium.
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Brian Miller
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 4
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The thing of it is, if it was Stan who left, who would be the "face" of Marvel. Kirby? Ditko? Did either of them have it in them to push Marvel and be the company man like Stan did?
I don't really think so.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 9:55am | IP Logged | 5
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Peter Sanderson pondered, years ago, on what would have happened if Stan had left and Jack had stayed. Who, as Peter put it, would now be seen as "good Marvel Daddy" and "bad Marvel Daddy"?
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Wallace Sellars
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Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17678
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 6
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As much as I enjoy Jack Kirby's FOURTH WORLD stuff, and appreciate Steve
Ditko's work with Blue Beetle and the Question, it doesn't come close to
what they each produced in concert with Stan Lee.
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Robert White
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 7
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Stan is probably the single biggest reason Marvel became more popular than DC in a "psychological" sense. Kirby without doubt was responsible from the ideas and character designs, and it's his imagination that's at the heart of Marvel's success, but without Stan's hucksterism, sly humor and enthusiasm, Marvel would have just been a poor man's DC.
I don't think for a second that Stan set around thinking "Gee, how can I screw Kirby and Ditko this week?" From what I've read (Rise and Fall of the American Comic Book and other things) Stan took the diplomat approach between the "heartless" suits and the talent. That's not going to win many fans in the artistic community, but it was more practical.
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Robert Cosgrove
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Joined: 16 January 2005
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 8
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"I can see where Ditko was going with the notion of the person behind the
Green Goblin as being an anonymous everyman, but, to the general public,
Norman Osborn was far more dramatic."
Ditko has recently denied (in Robin Snyder's The Comics) that it was his
intention to unmask the Green Goblin as an "anonymous everyman," and
(quite logically) has also denied that he and Lee argued over his alleged
intention to do so.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:29am | IP Logged | 9
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I wonder if he also did not intend to keep Mary Jane always with her face
obscured?
Ah, the legends, the legends. . . .
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Regan Tyndall
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:34am | IP Logged | 10
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My opinion may be unpopular, but I think both Kirby and Ditko are way over-rated.
Are they both great? Yes. Was Kirby the most action-packed artist of the 50s-60s era who had the greatest influence on the Marvel art-style? Yes. Was Ditko a cool artist who defined Dr. Strange and the teenage Spider-Man? Yes.
Having said all of that, I think Stan Lee is a genius of the twentieth century whose contribution to youth/comics/fantasy/story-telling of the postwar era is incalculable. He's to the comic book as The Beatles are to rock music.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:39am | IP Logged | 11
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He's to the comic book as The Beatles are to rock music.
••
He's more like what McCartney was to Lennon.
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Paulo Pereira
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| Posted: 13 June 2009 at 10:58am | IP Logged | 12
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Nah. If anything, Ditko and Kirby are underrated.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 13 June 2009 at 10:58am
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Topic Closed)
