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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:08am | IP Logged | 1
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… the "Where's Wally" factor on Alex Ross' art somehow made it a classic.
••
For some, perhaps. Those who like what I call "tonnage". For me, the lean,
sparse look of MARVELS was much superior. KINGDOM COME was weighed
down with wall-to-wall superheroes -- a problem that also vexed CRISIS ON
INFINITE EARTHS -- which is something generally best avoided. There is a
reason group books function best with a maximum of five or six members.
Beyond that, the "specialness" begins to be too heavily diluted.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:10am | IP Logged | 2
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"For the Man Who Has Everything...."
••
"Here is what happens. It's what happens every time. There is no way to
escape it. It is inevitable. Except this time."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 3
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I think Watchmen suffers at times by the attitudes of some of its fans. That
if
you don't get it, or it doesn't speak to you (and it is hard to produce
something that appeals to everyone) then you must not be smart enough or
hip enough to get it. A friend of mine told me to read it, I read it, I was
unimpressed and told him so (in a polite fashion, I am a Canadian after all)
and he started being condescending, almost patting me on the head for not
being smart enough to get it. He then broke it down and explained all the
literary devices Moore and Gibbons used and I pointed out that literary
devices such as the ones cited are usually used to add something to the
story
and the message and I believed that the devices were there to be there.
Some
had a specific intent which improved the story but others (to my mind) did
nothing but show off the skill of the writer and the artist. He rolled his eyes
at that one and rather than start an argument I just changed the subject.
••
WATCHMEN is sophistication for an audience that isn't very sophisticated.
Praising WATCHMEN (aside from the art) is like listening to a piece of music
composed almost entirely of "sampling" and lauding it as a brilliantly
original piece.
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William Lukash
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1405
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 4
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At the time I thought SS was one of the best darn super-hero stories I'd ever read. The art was decent for that time and if I remember correctly, it was hampered by that horrible flex-o-graphic printing process I thought the dailogue in Watchmen was better, but the plot/story was really nothing new, it just went beyond what the comics code allowed and I think that is why people liked it so much. sex and violence.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30970
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 5
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listening to a piece of music
composed almost entirely of "sampling" and lauding it as a brilliantly
original piece.
****************
I was arguing this very point re: that Kid Rock song in the music forum last year.
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Paul Kimball
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2181
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:01am | IP Logged | 6
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There is a person on this board that has several times posted "that's your
opinion" after someone makes a statement but then posts their own opinion
as fact. Not to be psychic but I suspect if they got the same post response to
their statements it would not go well. They haven't posted it to me but on
behalf of the board I give a hearty "I'm rubber, you're glue."
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132644
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 7
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WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (which was heavily influenced
by WATCHMEN) were the perhaps the first books to really "catch the wave" in
terms of the shifting audience. These were books ideally suited for the
faux ennui of that particularly vocal part of fandom that had reached a
point where they really wanted to be reading something else, but instead of
moving on expected comics to change to meet their needs.
These were the first dominoes to fall, leading to a cascade of titles all
following the same path, whether it was appropriate or not. ("Dark"
Congorilla? Seriously??)
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David Ferguson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 6782
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:04am | IP Logged | 8
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I would agree with everyone who says the art let SS down. I really liked the story.
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Pedro Cruz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 January 2006
Posts: 415
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:07am | IP Logged | 9
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There is no problem in someone prefering Squadron Supreme to Watchmen. I prefer John Byrne's Next Men to Watchmen.
Just because Squadron Supreme isn't as good as Watchmen doesn't mean it is a bad comic. It also doesn't mean Watchmen is the best comic ever.
Just because the creative team on Squadron Supreme wasn't as good as the creative team on Watchmen doesn't mean it was a bad creative team. It also doesn't mean the creative team on Watchmen was the best creative team ever.
But, regardless of taste, it IS a fact that Squadron Supreme isn't as good as Watchmen. Learn to live with that.
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Jeff Povaks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 March 2009
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:35am | IP Logged | 10
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Watchmen was just much better executed in terms of art and attention to
detail. I really liked SS but the art was terrible and it did suffer from clunky
dialogue.
Also keep in mind that Watchmen has been in print for over 20 years while
SS was only recently available as a graphic novel so Watchmen just reached a
wider audience over the years while SS was languishing in obscurity and
back issue bins.
Gruenwald's best run as a writer was Captain American in my opinion. What
a wonderfull run!! (Up until Cap-Wolf that is).
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Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3740
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:43am | IP Logged | 11
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"But, regardless of taste, it IS a fact that Squadron Supreme isn't as good as
Watchmen. Learn to live with that."
-----
That's adorable. But even as a joke, I'm not buying it.
Watchmen bored me. Squadron Supreme entertained me. That is the only
criteria I need to establish the latter as superior to the former.
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Matt Clouser
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 September 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 178
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 12
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QUOTE:
| WATCHMEN and THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS (which was heavily influenced by WATCHMEN) were the perhaps the first books to really "catch the wave" in terms of the shifting audience. These were books ideally suited for the faux ennui of that particularly vocal part of fandom that had reached a point where they really wanted to be reading something else, but instead of moving on expected comics to change to meet their needs. |
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That's IT!!!
Thanks, JB for putting into words what had been bothering me for years about "the wave" back in the late 80's. I was in my 30s at the time and was still picking up the odd comics here and there for entertainment. I saw, but could not really understand the shift towards darker, non-heroic side of comics. Until now, I did not understand the factors behind it. Besides, I was a new dad, so had plenty other things to focus my time and attention on - so I did - and went on one of my long comics "sabbatical".
No offense meant to those who like the newer, darker stuff. While I may not care for most of it, I understand I am a product of another generation and my tastes vary from yours.
Thanks again for the forehead-slapping moment!!
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