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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 12:30pm | IP Logged | 1
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Dr.Manhatten was able to see into the future. He obviously realised Veidt would be needed somehow and the worlds problems were just starting.
Edited by Victor Rodgers on 22 March 2009 at 6:01pm
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Jim Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 October 2006
Posts: 380
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 4:11pm | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
There's an interview out there with Joss Whedon about his first
comic assignment with Dark Horse.To teach Whedon about writing
comics, the editor sent him a copy of Moore's original script to the
Watchmen. That's just horrid. They taught the creator of the perfect
superhero T.V. show how to write comics in an anti-superhero style.
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I think Whedon is an experienced enough writer to retain his own voice
(and I suspect he was an Alan Moore fan long before that point).
What I'm aghast at is the idea that anyone would hold up Alan
Moore's scripts as an example of how to put one together. Have you
ever seen one of Moore's scripts? They're enough to give most artists
an aneurysm on the spot.
Now, John Wagner -- there's a guy whose scripts should be held up
as an example of how to write full script. Every artist who's ever
mentioned working on a Wagner script has (as far as I know) commented
on the enormous latitude Wagner affords his artists. Frazer Irving (I think)
splendidly described a Wagner script as being
"like getting a really exciting telegram."
(Remember that, even if you're quick to dismiss 30 years of writing top-
quality, genre-defining SF satire, this is also the man who wrote A History
of Violence and top thriller Button Man and has a body of work behind
him that would make many, many writers weep with envy!)
To the best of my knowledge, our host has only worked with Wagner
once, about a million years ago, and Google has sadly failed to supply me
with an illustration ...
Cheers
Jim
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 3
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Blaming Dr. Manhattan was tidier, not necessarily better, and certainly not because the film makers thought Moore got his own story's ending wrong.
I think the Russians coming together against the Dr. is easliy believable, he's the reason they are rattling sabres to begin with.
I personally think (personally) that if Veidt had died, Rorschach's sense of right and wrong would have been satisfied, if anything he would have been harder driven to fight wrongs from that point forward. And the world would have percieved him as a raving loony anyway.
Dr.Manhatten was able to see into the future. He obviously realised Veidt would be needed somehow and he worlds problems were just starting.
Nope, improper staement, Dr. Manhattan could see his own future. And if he left the planet, this just doesn't hold up.
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 4
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I personally think (personally) that if Veidt had died, Rorschach's sense of right and wrong would have been satisfied,
Totally agree.
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Ted Pugliese
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Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 5:11pm | IP Logged | 5
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Old hero decides to kill millions (?) of people to save the world and gets away with it (even after getting caught) and the guy who tries to stop him dies.
What is so great about it? Seriously.
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Pascal LISE
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 July 2006
Location: France
Posts: 1111
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 5:28pm | IP Logged | 6
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Deleted
Edited by Pascal LISE on 22 March 2009 at 5:29pm
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Robert Walsh
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 July 2008
Posts: 456
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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It's about a moral dilemma. On the one hand, you have a monstrous act where the perpetrator cannot be punished. On the other hand, you can bring him to justice and risk the entire world being destroyed.
The story makes clear what is right and wrong, with everyone in the story being horrified by what Ozy had done and even letting us get to know the victims of his crime. Civilians died and their deaths are presented as tragedy, they are not just statistics.
But the story places us beyond that choice between good and evil, where the dividing line between right and wrong is not clear cut. What would the heroic thing be when thousands have died to save the world and the villain cannot be brought to justice without putting the fate of the world at risk?
I think Nite Owl and Silk Spectre made the right choice, and Jon even figured out a way to punish him by denying him the knowledge that his actions saved mankind.
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Ted Pugliese
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 8
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It's about a moral dilemma. On the one hand, you have a monstrous act
where the perpetrator cannot be punished. On the other hand, you can
bring him to justice and risk the entire world being destroyed.
Not true.
Maybe Rorshach can't tell ( for a couple reasons), but Veidt does not have to go unpunished. Moore fails to seal the deal. The fact that they changed the ending of the story and to one that contradicts the flaws in the original ending is big.
But my point has not been to put Moore's story down, only to answer the title question. Watchmen, for many reasons, some discussed here, is not a better story than Squadron. However, Dave Gibbons' beautiful and consistent art made this a masterpiece, and the Squadron does not compare. Heck, no limited series does.
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Fred J Chamberlain
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Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4036
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 9
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Wow, talk about timing:
http://www.comicartpage.com/FeaturedDetail.asp?Piece=2138&am p;ArtistId=851
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Robert Walsh
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Joined: 24 July 2008
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 7:57pm | IP Logged | 10
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Part of the plot as outline in the "villain reveals it all" bit is that they can't kill him or bring him to justice without putting the entire world in danger. If Ozy disappears, then his disappearance will be investigated. If the police investigate, the entire plan will very likely fall apart and the world will be in jeopardy.
This is said outright at the end of the story. Rorschach is the only one willing to risk Armageddon to bring him to justice. Everyone else backs down, because the stakes are too big and Ozy's plan is shown to have worked.
More presented this as a moral dilemma. Maybe you think it's not 100% air tight, but that's the point of the story, the heroes are put in a position where simplistic good versus evil morality falls apart and they have to do what we so often have to do in the real world, accept a messy reality that does more good than bad and hope for the best.
Watchmen is one of the best books I've read. Certainly among the best genre books I've ever read. It's an amazing piece of fiction that leaves me thinking for hours afterwards about morality and humanity every time I read it. It's a rare, rare book that does that to me.
The artwork is good, certainly does its job well; but it's not the reason why I enjoyed and remember and think about this book. It's not why I went and spent $100 on a deluxe hard cover edition of the book after having not read a comic in years.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 11
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The artwork is good, certainly does its job well; but it's not the reason why I enjoyed and remember and think about this book.
******
How can you be so sure? The art and writing on a comic are too entangled together to seperate. Especially on this comic knowing how much input Gibbons had. Its not a simple clear cut matter.
QUOTE:
| Nope, improper staement, Dr. Manhattan could see his own future. And if he left the planet, this just doesn't hold up. |
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Veidt was still needed. He may have been delusional but he was still a genius. The earth was at too delicate a stage for revenge for the sake of revenge. Jon recognised this. Veidt's ultimate punishment was living in the new world he created. Especially after his involvement was revealed.
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Ted Pugliese
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Joined: 05 December 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 7985
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 12
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Veidt could easily die in his base when it failed, no problem.
But you give the credit to Moore, and I give it Gibbons (finally).
I bought the Absolute edition too. Isn't it beautiful? You can read it with reading it.
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