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Topic: Why doesn’t Squadron Supreme get as much praise as Watchmen? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 1:13am | IP Logged | 1  

Watchmen is kind of freaky and interesting. It's exactly what Alan Moore's good at, and what people go to him for. When I read it, I enjoyed it for what it was. I do resent the hacks who have turned the Watchmen into an industry-wide style guide and bible, though.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 22 March 2009 at 1:14am
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Robert White
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 1:16am | IP Logged | 2  

I'm not a big fan of forming a bias against a work that influenced many lesser creators to create many lesser works. My love of Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, for instance, can never be dimmed by the fact that its influence is responsible for many, many, many bad epic fantasy novels.
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Joe Zhang
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 1:26am | IP Logged | 3  

There's an interview out there with Joss Whedon about his first comic assignment with Dark Horse.To teach Whedon about writing comics, the editor sent him a copy of Moore's original script to the Watchmen. That's just horrid. They taught the creator of the perfect superhero T.V. show how to write comics in an anti-superhero style.


Edited by Joe Zhang on 22 March 2009 at 1:27am
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Fred J Chamberlain
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 6:51am | IP Logged | 4  

I had never had that Joe. I'm glad that Whedon still uses his own voice and his distinctive style has transferred to the comic medium, despite that.
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Michael Huber
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 5  

Robert, Joe said I do resent the hacks not the originating work. You missed his point.

 And I can see his point of view. Watchmen was meant to be a stand alone. That's one of the reasons it was done with throw away characters. But then everyone went "wow this is how all comics should be done". Umm, no.

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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 6  

Don't get me wrong, I really like Watchmen (the comic, not the movie) but after seeing the movie, I realize the story was not so great.  Think about the ending, They changed it for the movie.  That means somebody had a problem with Ozymandias creating an alien invader (not me) and replaced it with Doc being the threat.  I can almost see earth comig together against aliens, but for them to come together against Manhattan (who left) is no different then them having to come together against Oz.  So the truth could be revealed, which means Rorshach could have lived, which means Oz could have been killed, and nothing would be gained, and the entire ending of the movie is flawed.

But the comic book ending is flawed too, beacuse Doc could have killed Oz and SHOULD have killed Oz.  The bad guy needed to pay for his crimes and Rorshach should have lived.  He could not tell anyone what happened anyway because then the comic would follow the movie and all the 'heroes' who were already outlawed would be the enemy the world thought they were, so Rorshach would have been forced into silence.

My ending:

So Doc instead goes out in the cold, talks to Rorshach, convices him why he can't tell the world, not because they are finally starting to come together, but because now more than ever, the world needs heroes.  The truth would undo any good Oz did, but also reinforce how right they were to outlaw heroes in the first place.  For God's sake, look what happened!  Together, they realize that Oz needs to be punished.  It's part of why they exist.  Not only to guard the nation and the world, but to guard them against themselves. 

This is why Doc must leave too.  What is there to stop him from doing the same thing?  Who is he to play god and decide who lives and who dies, and whether or not he is justified.  He realizes that he is too powerful, too dangerous, to remain on Earth.

Doc transports them both back inside.  As Night Owl and Silk spectre start to come to, they gather around Oz and explain why he was wrong, that despite the good thatmight come out of this, it was not his choice to make, and it cannot go unpunished.  Who watches the watchmen?  I am my brother's keeper.  Doc disintegrates Oz.  He returns them all home as the world consumes the base.

He explains why he must go to Silk Spectre, kisses her good bye and leaves,still making his God complex statement about creating life, further illustrating why he was right in leaving.  (Maybe he lefts people think he went to find the aliens who attacked earth, can't decide).

Our heroes retun to the new world and their new roll as heroes, and the story ends with the same guy possibly choosing to publish Rorschachs journal.

No worries there, just something to think about.  Would it's discovery do anything to change what has happend.  I think not, because no one would believe it anyway, and the readers never get to find out for sure.  Some questions are better left unanswered.
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Ted Pugliese
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 7  

Again, you do not have to agree, but The ending, as written by Moore, is not so great and it diminishes the story, yet the series, the 'graphic novel' is good.  My civilian cousin loved it when he read it last summer.  He liked what I liked, how Moore created a whole world around the story, a history and back story.  This was More strength, not the actual story, but what he added to it.  Even that, though, was made all the better by Gibbons work.  He brought it to life, he brought the whole series to life, and he did an incredible job.

So yes, I like it.  I think Moore did a good job, but look at that book, Gibbons made it special, and a month ago, I was giving Moore all the credit.  I changed my mind.  It doesn't make me right and you wrong, but it isn't ridiculous.

Gibbons is one of the most underrated cartoonist of my generation of fandom.  Again, his Green Lantern run and GLC stories were beautiful too.  If you haven't seen them, check 'em out!
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Mikael Bergkvist
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 8  

If Moore was dead, he would turn in his grave.

He's not, but still..

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 11:38am | IP Logged | 9  

I think Moore's ending was appropriate. The "dark age" of the world was ending, and its new "golden age" is built upon a lie.

Rorschach would never have seen reason--his entire worldview is based on there being right and wrong with no compromise between. Does anyone really believe he could have been persuaded to remain silent? That is an example of a fan's thinking "what ought to be" rather than what suits the needs of the story. Not everyone may like the ending Moore wrote, but it is faithful to the story's premises and maintains the story's integrity.

Besides which, what is the point of Dr. Manhattan punishing Ozymandias? How would that change anything? Ozymandias commits an act of terrorism... and the world is saved from its own madness by an instant of absolute horror. WATCHMAN (if nothing else) forces us to ask the question, what does it mean to save the world? In this instance, Ozymandias launches a first strike of his own against the US, which is portrayed as a global aggressor. That first strike kills millions in NYC--but it directly prevents the death of billions.

Would killing Ozymandias and revealing the truth have done anything other than push the world toward Armageddon? I don't think so.

Sorry, but the ending was the ending. For my money, Moore got it right.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 10  

As for the thread's topic--

Squadron Supreme was a good effort at showing a broken world where the heroes were trying to put things back together. It played by the rules and even explored the limits of the superhero paradigm in making the world a better place--can violence really achieve positive outcomes in a hopelessly complex situation?

Watchman, on the other hand, was a game-changer. The comics industry reacted to Watchmen as something new, even unprecedented; whether it really was or not I leave to individual opinion. But it shaped a generation of story tellers, for better or worse. (And I would agree that there was much "worse" that came out of Moore's imitators than "better" but that is not Moore's fault or responsibility.)

Squadron Supreme was a good comic book story; Watchmen was something more (no pun intended). That is why SS doesn't get the praise Watchmen does-- it simply isn't on the same level.

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Andrew Bitner
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 11:50am | IP Logged | 11  

Finally, with regard to the movie's ending-

From what I have read in interviews with the film makers, the ending was changed because explaining the creation of the squid--which, remember, involved the disappearance of many people and an interlude on an island not unlike LOST, with the creators ending up dead and a bit of foreshadowing as a piece of artwork washes ashore--would have eaten up a very large amount of time. Blaming Dr. Manhattan was tidier, not necessarily better, and certainly not because the film makers thought Moore got his own story's ending wrong.

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Steven Myers
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Posted: 22 March 2009 at 11:52am | IP Logged | 12  

So why should Ozymandias live? So he can do this all again the next time the world find something to fight about?  Seems to me he's really stupid.  Otherwise he comes up with a good plan, that really means lasting peace.  But I may be forgetting parts of the story, and I have no desire to revisit it now (I'm busy reading Kirby's OMAC.)
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