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Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 12:07pm | IP Logged | 1
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Yes, but so metculous the artist can only pick and choose what actually
draw on the page. No me could draw what was written, the skill lies in
knowng what to leave out.
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Robert LaGuardia
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 November 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 1296
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 2:19pm | IP Logged | 2
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Trevor, I agree that From Hell is Moore's best I also agree with Victor that it's annoying when a writer gets put on a pedestal, I'm not sure if I've seen it here though.
I've never read any Squadron Supreme but I can say that Watchmen deserves all of the praise I've see it get, and it's the result of the combination of Moore and Gibbons equally.
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Michael Edwards
Byrne Robotics Member
Wish Granted
Joined: 21 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 295
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 2:34pm | IP Logged | 3
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The first thing I learned upon becoming a writer, is that the artist is the director of your story, not the other way around. It is up to them to interpret how they wish to portray your story visually.
If Gibbons had drawn everything Alan Moore asked for he would have gone insane, and probably been locked in a mental asylum.
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Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1067
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 3:22pm | IP Logged | 4
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To each his one but I loved Watchmen and thought Squadron Supreme was
mediocre. SS did have some really awful art and coloring so I wonder if a
better art team like Byrne and Ordway would have helped make the story
more appealing to me.
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Pedro Bouça
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 1465
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 5
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Let me qualify my classification of SS's artwork as terrible. This is not at all a dig on Bob Hall or Paul Ryan, whose work I do admire.
However, both gentlemen's art on SS was probably the worst of their respective careers! Paul Ryan was still on the beginning of his career at the time and went on to do much better works. His art wasn't bad even then and certainly his assignment to the series was an improvement from what it came before.
However, Bob Hall was unrecognisable there. Maybe it was the inker, I don't know. But it was far from the guy who did the first New Mutants and West Coast Avengers comics. It was the writing that made me read his SS issues, the art repulsed me!
Also the coloring brought the art down, but that was sadly common at the time.
John Buscema's issue was up to his usual high standards (not his best, but his best is world class!) and is easily the best drawn in the series by far. Had he drawn the entire story, it would've probably been hailed has a timeless classic.
On the other hand, Dave Gibbons was probably on his top when he did Watchmen (and that's saying a lot!). And don't give me the old "Moore puts everything on his scripts", because I've seen A LOT of badly drawn Alan Moore comics, Gibbons brought much to his scripts! If Alan Moore was able to use the sophisticated comic narrative techniques he used (which make his work a classic, more than anything else), that's because Gibbons was up to the task!
The series was also better colored and printed than SS ever was, even on the recent TPBs.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 6
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I've seen A LOT of badly drawn Alan Moore comics
His run on Supreme (which is excellent, and highly recommended) springs to mind. Paired with better artists, those stories would've become classics.
Most of the people who don't like Watchmen here seem to have some sort of personal grudge against Alan Moore for all the comics that they haven't enjoyed
since 1987
Makes sense; I wonder if some of the negative reviews of Watchmen is merely a reflection of one's personal bias? I found it a great yarn back in 1986, and still do; that's all I ask of an entertaining comic book.
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Mikael Bergkvist
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1857
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 7
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Some may dislike it for the same reason Moore himself does - because of all the utter crap it inspired trying to emulate it, copy it, imitate it, or just rip it off.
The comic in itself is a masterpiece though.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4881
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 8:16pm | IP Logged | 8
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The only bad thing I see with Watchmen is the trend that followed it - every Tom, Dick and Harry out there wanted to write their own deconstuctionist crap, which led to some pretty awful dreck.
And while I'm normally a Marvel guy (and a Squadron Supreme fan), I don't think the two series are in the same neighborhood. In my opinion, Watchmen is just better executed, despite the slightly crazy "alien invasion" ending.
This is not to say that I didn't enjoy the Squadron Supreme mini-series, because I did. I just didn't enjoy it as much as some of the other stories they've appeared in, and not as much as Watchmen.
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Fred J Chamberlain
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4036
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 8:38pm | IP Logged | 9
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Sadly, huge success of a product leads to numerous attempts to recreate that success by inferior writers and pale imitations. Bndis' stuff used to leave me in awe.and was refreshing in its uniqueness...... the wasteland of pitiful projects that followed his widespread success is still being added to and only recently appears to have slowed down, with some mainstream projects having more substantial typeface in their pages.
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Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3740
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 10
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I disliked Watchmen for one reason only. It bored me. A handful of
characters I didn't much like spent a lot of time reminiscing about nasty
things that happened in the past, and ultimately, I didn't care what
happened to any of them. Nor did I ever wish to see any of them again.
While Squadron Supreme is no masterpiece, I found it to be a fun super-
hero story, just about every issue of which left me eager to see what was
going to happen next. To this day, I can still remember whole scenes and
plot-points. From Watchmen, I remember there was a rape, and a big
death scene, and Rorschach stammering a lot. Other than that, I've
completely forgotten the plot.
I could happily re-read Squadron Supreme. I have no interest in revisiting
Watchmen.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4881
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| Posted: 21 March 2009 at 9:37pm | IP Logged | 11
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And then there's also personal tastes factoring into things Ray.
There are some highly-regarded writers and artists out there that leave me cold.
Different strokes for different folks, right?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35945
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| Posted: 22 March 2009 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 12
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Andrew W. Farago wrote:
Most of the people who don't like Watchmen here seem to have some sort of personal grudge against Alan Moore for all the comics that they haven't enjoyed
since 1987 |
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Poppycock. I'm not the biggest fan of WATCHMEN because I'm not the biggest fan of WATCHMAN. Not because I hold a grudge against Moore, but because I'm not a fan of deconstructionist clap trap. Otherwise, you insinuate that the only reason not to like WATCHMAN is because of the effect it had on the industry and that if it didn't have said effect, it would be universally praised as being the best of the best of the medium. Isn't it quite possible not to like WATCHMEN on it's own merits rather than falling back on the old saw that just because a bunch of people like it, I must be wrong for not liking it? Really? Do you want to go that far with you generalization?
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