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         Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4075
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 1
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"But the vast majority of people who read both books DO agree." 
 ----- 
 How exactly would you know this? By your own post, the two books don't 
 even belong in the same conversation, so it can't be a topic you've ever 
 brought up before.
 
 I can honestly say that this is the first discussion I've ever seen where 
 anyone's claimed that Squadron Supreme was a better book than 
 Watchmen, or was as good as it.  I don't think I've seen Squadron 
 Supreme discussed as much in the past 25 years as I've seen it discussed 
 here, whereas Watchmen, even before the movie, has always been able to 
 stir up loads of conversation.  If Squadron Supreme were as beloved and 
 highly regarded as people here are claiming, I'd expect it to be a more 
 regular topic of conversation.
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         Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology 
  
  Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 2
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Trevor I don't do characters. Its too much work for dicking around
online. This thread has been seeing other creators getting
unfairly buried. First Bob Hall and Paul Ryan then Mark Gruenwald and
now Dave Gibbons. Is there a polite term for cock riding? If so I'll
use it.
  Why get mad at Alan Moore?  He's not the guy doing it. 
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         Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3737
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 6:47pm | IP Logged | 3
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"I can honestly say that this is the first discussion I've ever seen where 
 anyone's claimed that Squadron Supreme was a better book than 
 Watchmen, or was as good as it"
 -----
 And I can honestly say that this is the first discussion I've ever seen where 
 anyone's claimed the reverse. Have you ever seen the two books compared 
 before? If not, would you presume to speak on behalf of the majority of 
 comic readers as to what their preference is?
 
 It's a simple premise: unless you've taken a poll, you don't know what the 
 majority believes.
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         Monte Gruhlke Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 03 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3299
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 4
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All hail Alan Moore? LOL... thanks, I can use that laugh. I never said that the Squadron Supreme was an unparalled rave. It was an all-ages approach to world changes, while Moore's great achievement through Watchmen was simply unleashing a torrent of profanity and an angry deconstructionist POV while rehashing story concepts that have come before.
  I felt that both minis were a good read - but I felt that rather than acolades for Watchmen, it's real accomplishment was the deconstructionalist drek that has plagued the industry ever since. 
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         Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 5
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I think what people point to is Moore wrote an exhaustive script describing everything to the minute detail. Now, as stupid as that sounds, it also says Dave Gibbons, great as he is, probably could be replaced by Sal Buscema, Don Heck, Tom Grummett, Eduardo Barreto, Mike Grell or John Byrne, or just about any comic book artist with a "clean" style devoid of florish--a workman.  
Is WATCHMEN infinitely better if Darwyn Cooke or Michael Cho or, classically, Jack Kirby or John Buscema had produced the art? Well, if the artist is relating Moore's ridiculously dense script, then it's certainly no different except for the style of the figures. And yet it does become something else because of the style of the more "stylistic" artists we can think of. Steve Ditko's WATCHMEN... 
I think WATCHMEN benefits from the repetitions Gibbons manages to evoke, visually, in a clean style that makes the symbolism seamless. He's not just an art robot, but Moore made sure Gibbons isn't the star of that product either.  
I didn't get offended at the idea SQUADRON SUPREME is compared to WATCHMEN...I didn't even blink, really. SS has a cult status as well, and considering when it was released, it deserves to be mentioned.  
Again, WATCHMEN doesn't come close to clobbering my perceptions like the real pinnacles of the medium, for me, such as the "Church of Satan" arc in TOMB OF DRACULA, or John Byrne's FF 236 "Terror in a Tiny Town" or Miller's Daredevil stuff, CONCRETE or Gerber's Man-Thing stories...stories that shoved aside everything I thought a comic book was or could be in ways I wouldn't have imagined before reading them. Thus, WATCHMEN doesn't rate anywhere near them as an evergreen example of the comic book form.  
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         Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 6
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As someone said earlier. Squadron did not recieve much hype or became that big in sales. It has developed a good reputation thru word of mouth alone. I can remember in the mid 90s hearing different people talk about it. I know I hunted for back issues for years. I never found the entire series. I got about 4 and enjoyed them greatly. But could never find  the others. I finally got the trade and was blown away by it.  
I enjoyed he over all plot of the Squadron trying to save the planet by ruling it. The sub plots of various Squadron members becoming corrupted along the way. Nighthawk having to comporise his own morals to stop his friends. The Tom Thumb issues where he tries to cure cancer and fails. The second time going against his own morals and still failing. The issue with the Hyperion vs Hyperion fight. The final issue with the brutal finale where nobody really won. I loved it all. I thought it did some big ideas whil still have the sense of wonder super hero comics need.   
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         Victor Rodgers Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 26 December 2004 Posts: 3508
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 7:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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Why get mad at Alan Moore?  He's not the guy doing it. 
******* 
Im really not. I enjoy a lot of his work. I loved Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Captain Britain. Its a certain segment of the fanbase that put him on this pedastal. Thats a bit annoying at times.  
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         Andrew W. Farago Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 19 July 2005 Location: United States Posts: 4075
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 8
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It's a simple premise: unless you've taken a poll, you don't know what 
 the 
 majority believes.
 
 As a matter of fact, I've contacted the Gallup organization, and we've 
 conducted an extensive study of...
 
 Nah.  I've seen Squadron Supreme discussed as a proto-Watchmen comic 
 before, and I can appreciate the fact that so many people on this board 
 are willing to get up in arms about it, but yes, I've only got the anecdotal 
 evidence of no one ever claiming to be a really big fan of Squadron 
 Supreme versus however many hundreds of Watchmen fans I've 
 encountered over the years.  It's not that presumptuous, is it?  Most of the 
 people who don't like Watchmen here seem to have some sort of personal 
 grudge against Alan Moore for all the comics that they haven't enjoyed 
 since 1987, so I'm not sure what anyone's getting out of this discussion 
 at this point.
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         Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology 
  
  Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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           | Posted: 20 March 2009 at 7:27pm | IP Logged | 9
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Im really not. I enjoy a lot of his work. I loved Watchmen, Swamp Thing, 
 Captain Britain. Its a certain segment of the fanbase that put him on this 
 pedastal. Thats a bit annoying at times.
 
 Well, if it makes you feel any better, I think New Frontier is better than The 
 Watchmen.  
 
 From Hell is Moore's best work, not Watchmen, IMO.
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         Ted Pugliese Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 05 December 2005 Location: United States Posts: 7982
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           | Posted: 21 March 2009 at 8:26am | IP Logged | 10
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Go back, read it again.  It's good, but the story has many flaws in it.  The magic of those comics (yes, they were comics) was all Gibbons.  I thought the opposite until just recently, but I am convinced more than ever that Gibbons carried Moore through the whole thing.
  Just like he did with the Superman Annual.
   
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         Trevor Giberson Byrne Robotics Chronology 
  
  Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 1888
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           | Posted: 21 March 2009 at 10:33am | IP Logged | 11
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Go back, read it again.  It's good, but the story has many flaws in
it.  The magic of those comics (yes, they were comics) was all
Gibbons.  I thought the opposite until just recently, but I am
convinced more than ever that Gibbons carried Moore through the whole
thing.
  Ridiculous. 
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         Kevin Hagerman Byrne Robotics Member 
  
  Joined: 15 April 2005 Location: United States Posts: 18254
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           | Posted: 21 March 2009 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 12
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Have you  ever read an Alan Moore script?  It's very meticulous and exhaustive. 
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