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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 1
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I agree with Martin Redmond.
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Kevin Sharp
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 December 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 326
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 10:41am | IP Logged | 2
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Jughead's Joke Book Supreme is way better than Watchmen.
***
Let's not let Erik's comparison drag this thread into the ridiculous.
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Monte Gruhlke
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3303
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 11:20am | IP Logged | 3
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LOL, Poor Erik!
Didn't the Squadron Supreme mini come out first (before Watchmen and certainly before Authority?) I've always felt that the Watchmen story was a "johnny-come-lately" to the concept of heroes changing the world, just more grittier. Then the Authority came along with even more grit and in your face kewlness.
But seriously... praise? As much praise as Watchmen? It's an interesting mini, sure, but I never felt it was the Earth-shaking, mind-overwhelming tale that it's become to be... the legend has easily outpaced the reality in this case.
Edited to correct poor grammar and to hide my drinking.
Edited by Monte Gruhlke on 20 March 2009 at 11:21am
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 12:11pm | IP Logged | 4
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There are many comics that I read more often and enjoy on a visceral level more than I do Watchmen, but there are few that I enjoy on an intellectual level or "literary" level to the same degree.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6427
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 5
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Didn't Alan Moore take over writing on the later issues of Jughead's Jokebook Supreme and totally revamp it from the ground up?
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Erik Larsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 February 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 344
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:23pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mark Gruenwald was, by most accounts, a really great guy. He was not,
however, a really great writer. His run on Captain America is frequently
singled out as that book's lowest point and Squadron Supreme had
moments which were, frankly, laughable. It was also far too similar to its
source material for comfort. Watchmen didn't look and feel like an
existing team even if they were similar to individual characters.
We can argue personal taste all day long and point to various examples of
this and that but the consensus is-- Watchmen was vastly superior to
Squadron Supreme. You may not feel that way. You may disagree. But the
vast majority of people who read both books DO agree. Watchmen has its
reputation for a reason.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35941
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 7
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Good thing I don't often go with what the majority deems is best then!
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David Suiter
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 February 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 428
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 8
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Erik wrote: "His run on Captain America is frequently
singled out as that book's lowest point "
It is unfortunate that Gruenwald's long run on Captain America is remembered more for Cap-Wolf and Fighting Chance than the brilliant stuff with The Captain, Super-Patriot, Bloodstone Hunt, the introduction of Crossbones and the relationship with Diamondback. Gruenwald's work on Cap is the definitive Cap to me. I did not care for Cap-Wolf but I loved the book for the other hundred issues Mark wrote.
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Michael Huber
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 August 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 3338
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 9
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I was gonna say, the reason is more mob mentality than good taste, logic, or even a solid moral sensibility. But Matt's works too.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:42pm | IP Logged | 10
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Mark Gruenwald was a great writer. His Cap run had some low points. He was a writer on the book for a very long time. Claremont had some low points on X-Men.
During his time on the book he wrote the Scoorge of the Underworld storyline. He did the epic John Walker Cap story arc. When people mention great Cap storylines these are the ones that come up. Even the low points are fun super hero comics. He did great work on Quasar. In paticular the first 25 issues and the Collision in the Cosmos story arc. He did big ideas with super heroes while still telling classic super hero stories. But he isn't some british guy so he never gets that credit.
QUOTE:
and Squadron Supreme had
moments which were, frankly, laughable. |
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Really what were these?
QUOTE:
You may disagree. But the
vast majority of people who read both books DO agree. |
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Not according to this thread. Its going 60/40 here among people who READ both.
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Andrew W. Farago
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 4079
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 11
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Watchmen's got a slew of awards, it's sold about a million copies in trade
paperback form, it's been used as a college textbook for more than a
decade, it was the only comic that made it onto Time Magazine's 100
greatest novels of the 20th century list, Alan Moore's regarded by most
people who aren't on this message board as one of the most talented
writers in comics, just about everyone on this thread has acknowledged
that Dave Gibbons is a really talented artist and that John Higgins is a
talented colorist, it's pretty obvious that the production values on
Watchmen were of a higher standard that Squadron Supreme's, and only
a handful of people here are rating the Bob Hall/Paul Ryan art team above
Gibbons.
Is it really that much of a stretch to say that maybe, just maybe,
Watchmen earned some of the praise that it's gotten, and that it might
actually be a superior book to Squadron Supreme? I know that there's a
knee-jerk backlash against it for being popular, and for snarky things
that Alan Moore has said in interviews, and for the lousy imitations that
came along in its wake, but man...
I know that "just because you say it's better doesn't mean it is" is a fair
enough defense, but is it okay to respond with "just because you like
Squadron Supreme better than Watchmen, and just because you actively
dislike Watchmen, that doesn't make Squadron Supreme the better
comic"?
I can't stand "Hotel California" and I think The Eagles are terribly
overrated, but that doesn't mean I can put honestly put forth the notion
that the Spice Girls are better musicians, just because I'd rather listen to
their music. Or, to put it in comic book terms, I don't want to put up with
someone saying "there's no way to prove that John Romita Sr. is a
better inker than Vince Colletta, so you can't win this argument."
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Bruce Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4797
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| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 2:02pm | IP Logged | 12
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Well, it's not exactly like Time magazine named Squadron Supreme one of its Top 100 Novels of the 20th Century. Personal tastes are subjective (I liked both books), but there's no doubt Watchmen gets far more praise. In fact, that was the premise of the question that started this thread. I think even folks who didn't like Watchmen would have to admit that there's something there that made an indelible impression on many readers.
I'll have to stick up for Gruenwald's writing as well. His Captain America stuff by and large was great, particularly the Serpent Society/Diamondback storyline, the Bloodstone Hunt and the "new" Captain America. Gruenwald really explored what it means to be a hero during a time when being the "good guy" wasn't always cool.
Gruenwald's Captain America work did tail off toward the end of his 10-year run, no doubt about it. I've wondered if some of that might have been due to his health situation. In any case, like David said, it doesn't negate all those years of wonderful stories he gave us.
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Topic Closed)
