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John Mariani
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 June 2008
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 168
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 7:36am | IP Logged | 1
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Just want to say a couple of things here. The type of comic art that I prefer is crisp and clean. I really cannot be bothered with muddy rough lines. This is only my personal preference.
It just so happens that both Paul Ryan and Dave Gibbons fall into this category, and as a result, I love their work.
Being here in the UK I guess I was exposed to Dave's work before he did some US comics. And he was, for a long time, my favourite current British artist. He is still up there for me. What I can't understand is : why aren't the publishers who possess the rights to his work putting out volumes to cash in on the current Watchmen buzz? Or do they think it wouldn't sell, that Watchmen is all about Moore?
Why isn't he working on a title right now? Come to that, where is Paul?
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Mikael Bergkvist
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1857
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 7:41am | IP Logged | 2
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"beyond a medium traditional restrictions?"
You meant to say "a genre's traditional restrictions", yes?
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Anthony Frail
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 October 2007
Posts: 960
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:34am | IP Logged | 3
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I think if political subtext/deconstructionist stuff is done right, most of the
people who read it without looking for meaning, will still find the work great
on the story's merits alone.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 8:43am | IP Logged | 4
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Come to that, where is Paul?
****
He draws the Phantom comic strip.
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Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 9:36am | IP Logged | 5
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Squadron tells the tale of superheroes who behave like superheroes while trying to do what they think is best for the world, but not recognizing the line they have crossed until it's too late. They are proactive rather than reactive, not waiting for the villain to announce or commence his plan before taking action against him, and then taking away that villain's ability to do evil in the future. They adjust the villains' brains, as Doc Savage did in his stories, to turn them into law-abiding citizens.
If I were a citizen of Metropolis, and something bad happened to a member of my family, I would hate Superman for not preventing it. No matter what else he accomplished, it would be hard to reconcile him as a hero while my loved ones were hurt or killed due to his inaction (whether he was busy elsewhere or not, or whether he never prevented Luthor or Toyman or whoever from being able to hurt people ever again after catching them for the umpteenth time).
Squadron tells the tale of superheroes in the real world from the perspective of the heroes: what action is too small to take if it saves a life or prevents an injustice; what freedoms should be sacrificed in the name of safety; are good intentions enough to justify dictatorship, and does might make right?
Watchmen tells the tale of superheroes in the real world from the perspective of the citizenry: the world is brought to the brink of annihilation, and left there, waiting...
The members of the Squadron Supreme, led by Hyperion, are concerned with the well-being of their charges. The dissenters, led by Nighthawk, are also concerned with the well-being of their charges. Both sides have heroic ideals with differing starting assumptions. The Watchmen affect the world just by existing in it, but they aren't actively trying to save the world, except for Veidt, and he uses the methods of a villain for his purposes.
I would much prefer being a citizen in the Squadron's world, as it contains heroes who are, rightly or wrongly, trying to make my world a better place for me and mine. As a reader of superheroic fiction, I would also prefer reading the exploits of the Squadron, as I find their motives to be in the superheroic mould.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3093
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 6
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You'd rather be in the Squadron's world? With Dictator Kyle Richmond, nuclear missiles on the moon, and food riots? That place was a shit-hole for years. And the Squadron keeps getting mind-controlled and devastates the Earth. No thank you.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 7
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Never boring
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 8
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WATCHMEN is rightly or wrongly pointed to as a pinacle of the genre -- yet I agree with many that it is not really a superhero story -- there's no uplifting ending (even in the sense that a beloved character might make the ultimate sacrifice, it's sad but still an overall "happy" end), it's a dystopia, and the heroes are not human in the most positive sense but in the Jerry Springer sense.
DARK KNIGHT is slightly better but the final half is greatly influenced by WATCHMEN and it ends with Batman out of costume -- moreover, a more "superheroic" ending would have had Superman coming to his senses and *joining* Batman rather than duking it out with him.
So, is there anything that the mainstream media applauds that is truly a "superhero" story? I mean, there's more respect for SLEEPING BEAUTY and SNOW WHITE. They are considered classics of the form without having to aspire to be "more" than the form by deconstructing it
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Wayde Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 October 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 3115
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 9
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David wrote:
You'd rather be in the Squadron's world? With Dictator Kyle Richmond, nuclear missiles on the moon, and food riots?
As opposed to being on the Watchmen's world, where Dr Manhatten might decide to alter your atomic structure on a whim? You betcha.
The Squadron vowed to improve their world, but failed for a variety of reasons. The Watchmen were more concerned with their own welfare than with those of the citizens of their world. Not too hard to pick between the two.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35941
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 10
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David Miller wrote:
| And the Squadron keeps getting mind-controlled and devastates the Earth. |
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Couldn't the same be said for the universes of Marvel and DC? NYC is destroyed on a regular basis, so much so that Marvel created Damage Control to take care of the destruction. Super villains regularly mind-control heroes and attempt to bend them to their will. Sentinels soar through the skies. Fing Fang Foom has been known to try and destroy Japan and has ravaged parts of the US. There are cosmic rays residing just outside Earth's atmosphere that can change a person's physical makeup. Characters like Galactus try to eat your planet and Darkseid sends his minions to wreak havoc. All of this, and I haven't even mentioned the vast number of alien races that would love to conquer Earth or outright destroy it and it's inhabitants. Given just that information, is that a world you would want to live in?
The difference, of course, is the world view. In WATCHMEN it's decidedly cynical. None of the superheroes are altruistic. None of them work for the common good. In SQUADRON SUPREME they are at least trying to do good, however misplaced. They learn that lesson the hard way.
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Christopher Alan Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2787
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:24am | IP Logged | 11
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Why would nuclear missiles on the moon bother anyone? Nuclear weapons on earth or in orbit would be a much greater threat.
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Victor Rodgers
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 18 March 2009 at 10:36am | IP Logged | 12
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None of the superheroes are altruistic. None of them work for the common good.
********
I think Rorscach did. He did bad things. But as the story went on I grew this respect for him as a person who would not compormie what he saw as right. I think he had changed for the better as the story progressed. Its not said outright but I got that sense after he got out of prison. Thats just my view.
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