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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3093
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 2:56pm | IP Logged | 1
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Moore compared Watchmen to Squadron Supreme in this 1986 panel transcribed in the Comics Journal.
The Comics Journal 116 wrote:
FROM THE AUDIENCE: Is it possible to handle superheroes realistically without the fascist overtones creeping in?
MOORE: I think that when Watchmen was first announced, everybody assumed it was going to be Squadron Supreme, the super-heroes take over. We never said that. We said that we were going to try to treat them realistically. I think that because there've been a lot of fascist overtones in Marvelman people assumed that the super-heroes had taken over. There aren't really any fascist super-heroes in Watchmen. Rorschach's not a fascist, he's a nutcase. The Comedian's not a fascist, he's a psychopath. Dr. Manhattan's not a fascist, he's a space cadet. They're not fascists. They're not in control of their world. Dr. Manhattan's not even in control of the world -- he doesn't care about the world. I think that while people expected that, we've not investigated the idea of super-heroes as fascists the same way that Frank [Miller] has in Dark Knight, or the same things they've done in Squadron Supreme. It wasn't really our intention. Our intention was to show how super-heroes could deform the world just by being there, not that they'd have to take it over, just their presence there would make the difference. It's what we try to show in Watchmen #4. From the point where Dr. Manhattan appears, everythihng starts to go downhill from there -- everything starts to change. He doesn't take over the country or make everyone subservent to him, but just his presence there amkes everythiing begin to change. Yet on another level, if you equate Dr. Manahttan with the atom bomb, the atom bomb doesn't take over the world, but by being there changes everything. That was more the idea I was a trying to explore. I'd say it's possible to do super-heroe stories that are realistic without getting into that Nazi mode. |
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I remember reading this when I was 14, and at the time I thought it was pretty cool that Moore was aware of Squadron Supreme, and not only took it seriously, was matter-of-fact about doing so.
Edited by David Miller on 15 March 2009 at 2:57pm
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Jeff Povaks
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Joined: 14 March 2009
Posts: 8
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 2
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Thank you for posting that David!
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John OConnor
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Joined: 01 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1109
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 4:09pm | IP Logged | 3
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To me, the Watchmen started better, but SS ended better.
I'm a big fan of Paul Ryans's art, but it was too
different than Bob Hall's, to the point of it being a
distraction.
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Jim Muir
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Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1373
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 4:41pm | IP Logged | 4
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I'd been reading american comics since 1978 so by 1986 I'd be the first to admit i was kind of jaded. No titles held my interest anymore and I was ready to turn my back on comics altogether. Its at this point Watchmen appeared.
I say 'appeared' as, unlike today where every new event is telegraphed 6 months ahead of schedule and talked to oblivion on the internet, back then, a letters page was as much fan talk as you could expect.
So Watchmen was very much a
surprise. And a complete eye-opener. I can think of no comic before
(and precious few since) that were so layered and well structured. Like
most Stephen King novels, the plot is almost inconsequential, its all
character, character, character.
Although I loved both V for Vendetta and Marvel(Miracle)man, Alan Moore was hardly a household name at that point. I think he'd only done Swamp Thing in the US by then(?) which I'd not read - I never followed writers (back then)
As for Dave Gibbons' art - fantastic - but I get where some people might hate it. I'd agree its probably not appropriate for your standard US superhero comic. Like Steve Dillon his style is better suited for real people in real world situations. Its a bit too stiff, too functional, too grounded in reality. Which is why its so perfect for Watchmen.
Loved Watchmen then, still do. And fully believe the critcal praise lauded on it is 100% warranted.
Which brings me to the this thread. I only have the barest recollection of Squadron Supreme, remember picking up an issue of it and hating the art, so it wasn't even on my radar as a potential classic. The title of this thread might well have been "Why doesn’t Captain Carrot get as much praise as Watchmen?"
Now Ive read these posts, Im intrigued enough to go out and buy the SS collected edition. Watchmen, for the most part, stands the test of time. We'll see if SS does.
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Pedro Cruz
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 January 2006
Posts: 417
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 4:43pm | IP Logged | 5
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Watchmen bored me. Squadron Supreme entertained me. That is the only
criteria I need to establish the latter as superior to the former.
But through that criteria, a Rob Liefeld fan could say Rob's a superior artist to John Byrne, for instance, right? Is Rob Liefeld a better artist than John Byrne? There must be some distinction between favorites/tastes/preferences and actual quality or at least technical achievement.
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Martin Redmond
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Joined: 27 June 2006
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 5:26pm | IP Logged | 6
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Maybe one reason is that it's pretty easy to read with the strict 9 panel grid? I'm not a fan, especially since the disgusting Lost Girls, but his overuse of 9 panels per page is a good idea, imo. Unless Squadron Supreme had that going too? And WM has a bit more celver transitions to read, ect.
Also, the art is a bit simplistic in it that I think you see alot of characters standing perfectly parallel to the camera. Which usually drives me crazy, but it gives the book simplicity and a sense of order and stylisation. Whereas, I didn't read Squadron, but from what I remember, it's overall "look" felt pretty disorganised. You could say the same about DKR, I'm sure. Because Miller's storytelling is pretty organised and stylised too. Just my observations. I think it's the simpler style of both books. Though that doesn't stop both from looking good.
Or maybe it's just cause it's the first thing published by DC with blood and rape in it? :/
Edited by Martin Redmond on 15 March 2009 at 5:30pm
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Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3740
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 5:49pm | IP Logged | 7
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"But through that criteria, a Rob Liefeld fan could say Rob's a superior artist
to John Byrne, for instance, right?"
-----
Of course he could. And it would be interesting to see such a fan defend his
position.
However, if I were to tell a Liefeld fan that, "regardless of taste, it IS a fact
that Rob Liefeld isn't as good as John Byrne. Learn to live with that," I can't
think of any reason why he should take me seriously.
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Victor Rodgers
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Joined: 26 December 2004
Posts: 3508
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | 8
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But through that criteria, a Rob Liefeld fan could say Rob's a superior artist to John Byrne, for instance, right? Is Rob Liefeld a better artist than John Byrne? There must be some distinction between favorites/tastes/preferences and actual quality or at least technical achievement.
******
Oh just shut up. First you come in declare something a fact. Then you come in with this crap. Who the hell made you the person to decide?
Also one person should explain whats wrong with Paul Ryan. Rather than saying its terrible then leaving.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 6:56pm | IP Logged | 9
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" Is it possible to handle superheroes realistically without the fascist
overtones creeping in?"
••
What an astonishingly stupid question. It's like asking "is it possible to put
women in skintight costumes without having cameltoe in every panel?"
A lot of readers/fans seem to have been sucked in by this whole notion of
the stories "writing themselves". When the mojo is really working, it
certainly feels like that is happening, but the reality is everything flows
from the writer, the artist. With very, very few exceptions, nothing is on the
page unless someone wants it on the page. "Fascist overtones"
"creep" into superhero stories only if the creators of those stories want
them there. They are in no way a natural consequence of the superhero
mythos.
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Andrew W. Farago
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 10
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I followed the series on a monthly basis when it was originally
published even toward the end when the last issues were late IIRC.
I read recently that only the last issue of Watchmen missed its ship date.
The first issues shipped monthly, then the series (as had been planned
early on) switched to bi-monthly midway through so that Gibbons could
stay on schedule. The last issue shipped a month late, which Gibbons at
least partially chalked up to the pressure of working on the most
anticipate single issue of his career.
***
Does anyone else find it weird that Watchmen is drawing criticism
because the characters drew their initial inspiration from Charlton
characters, but it's apparently no big deal that the Squadron Supreme is
populated by JLA-inspired characters?
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Robert White
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | 11
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I can enjoy Watchman as a brilliantly crafted sociopolitical tale using superheroes without it destroying my love for the traditional aspects of the genre, mainly because, like most things, the situation is dualistic.
I'm a fan of Alan Moore and I'm a fan of Watchmen, but if I took anything away from the tale it was that when you get to the point where superheroes are taken that seriously, in relation to society, the proverbial bubble bursts and everything ends. At least for superheroes. This is where Watchmen appropriately ends as a tale.
An interesting facet with stories like Watchmen is that they only really work without the presence of supervillains and "super-threats". That's one of the fundamental premises of Watchmen anyway--without villains,some of the heroes sort of turned in on themselves and became what they were supposed to be fighting. Another theme of Watchmen is that, for better or for worse, society needs to learn to deal with its own problems and not hide behind masked vigilantes. This makes sense for the Watchmen universe, but we run into big problems when applying this to the DC and Marvel universes.
When you have a world that could at any moment be conquered by Doctor Doom or Darkseid, or annihilated by Galactus or Brainiac, the rules change--institutionalized superheroes are a risk that must be taken. Not only that, governments not allying themselves with this likes of the FF, the Avengers or the JLA becomes absurd and suicidal. Suddenly superheroes aren't so silly and the problems of our real world society seems somewhat trite in comparison. Of course this is the point where some critics dismiss the superhero world altogether as being childish since they can no longer apply real world cynicism to the equation.
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Victor Rodgers
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| Posted: 15 March 2009 at 10:25pm | IP Logged | 12
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Does anyone else find it weird that Watchmen is drawing criticism
because the characters drew their initial inspiration from Charlton
characters,
*****
Has anyone done that?
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Topic Closed)
