Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum
Byrne Robotics > The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 23 Next >>
Topic: OT- Paul Pope’s Batman designs (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 1  

JB,

With respect, when you "changed" elements of Wonder Woman's costume when you took over the title, you fought furiously over on the AOL Byrne Forum protesting that you had not "changed" the costume, simply took artistic license with it.  How are the longer shorts on Pope's Batman or Cooke's Green Lantern any different than longer bracelets or a very big tiara?  Aren't these things just artistic license on the part of Pope or Cooke, etc.?

Also, to be fair, your Wonder Woman costume (particularly the tiara) sometimes changed from panel-to-panel within the same issue.



Edited by Marc Baptiste on 09 August 2008 at 5:07pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 2  

 I would say that those were minor stylstic changes that didn't change the overall iconic look or recongizability of Wonder Woman in the least. Pope's Batman is not nearly as instantly recognizable as Batman.

Frankly, as long as the monthlies stay on accessible model, I don't mind the idea of having other creators do "out of continuity" takes on the characters...as long as they still respect and adhere to the basic tenents of the character. However, on a personal note, I seriously don't see how any company would pay money to Tony Millionaire to do anything. That art looks like stuff me and my friends would draw in our notebooks during class in high school. (Pope's art is good...I just don't think his rendition of Batman looks good.)

Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:29pm | IP Logged | 3  

Joel,

JB also included Darwyn Cooke's Green Lantern in his criticism... was Green Lantern's iconic status THAT undermined in your opinion?  Did you find Darwyn's Green Lantern THAT unidentifiable?  Did you really not know it was him?


Edited by Marc Baptiste on 09 August 2008 at 5:32pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:34pm | IP Logged | 4  

Joel I am interested in what John has to say about the question.  You really couldn't tell Pope's Batman (set in the future) was Batman or that Cooke's Green Lantern was Green Lantern?  I find that really hard to swallow my friend.  Let's give one example (it is a great cover indeed):






Edited by Michael Retour on 09 August 2008 at 5:36pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:37pm | IP Logged | 5  

No, it was very identifiable. I didn't think he was really criticizing Cooke so much as just pointing out that rendering trunks that way was unnecessary on a character like Green Lantern bc his costume doesn't really involve trunks in the first place. At least that's what I inferred.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:42pm | IP Logged | 6  

That's the point, Joel!  You say it in your post and don't even see it!  Was it "necessary" (your point re: the Green Lantern change) for JB to stylistically "change" Wonder Woman's bracelets? Reduce the number of stars on her shorts?  Increase the size of her tiara?  Bring the belt up so far that its point rested flush with the inverse part of the underside of the double-W emblem?

Personally, I LOVED the stylistic interpretation of JB's Wonder Woman!



Edited by Marc Baptiste on 09 August 2008 at 5:47pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:43pm | IP Logged | 7  

You really couldn't tell Pope's Batman (set in the future) was Batman

I could tell it was something that was supposed to be Batman-ish. But, like I said before, to me it looks like a homeless guy with a malformed head dressed up in a batsuit. It doesn't look like he's supposed to be the real thing. It's TOO far off model. Of course, that seems to be somewhat intentional/part of the story, right?  Personally I don't have a problem with the concept at all...it's just a matter of personal taste that I think his Batman as rendered looks pretty ugly (and not like Batman). Just my opinion.

or that Cooke's Green Lantern was Green Lantern?

Oh definitely. I had no problem whatsoever identifying him and really like Darwyn Cooke's rendition. That's why I didn't mention him at all. See my post above re: the trunks.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 8  

Was it "necessary" (your point re: the Green Lantern change) for JB to stylistically "change" Wonder Woman's bracelets? Reduce the number of stars on her shorts?  Increase the size of her tiara?  Bring the belt up so far that its point rested flush with the inverse part of the underside of the double-W emblem?

Necessary? No. But all those things looked very cool and were well-rendered. The way I see it, he embelished certain elements while keeping the overall style/look. The important thing is that those stylized touches didn't veer too far from the source. Personally, I think that Cooke also accomplishes this. And personally, I think Pope does cross the line in veering too far from the source.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Ray Brady
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3740
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 9  

"You really couldn't tell Pope's Batman (set in the future) was Batman?"
-----
OK, now I'm confused. I thought we'd established that Pope's Batman was
not in fact Batman, but some guy in the future pretending to be Batman.
Back to Top profile | search | www
 
Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 10  

In your opinion Joel and that's it.  Pope's rendition is no more valid than the Batman of Neal Adams or any of the other artists who have drawn the character.  You just thought it was "cool" when John changed things but "not cool" when Pope did. 

Cooke can draw circles around most artists today and for that matter so can Pope. 

What is the Batman supposed to be?  A sleek, "I don't get my costume dirty", character?  Tell Frank Miller or, better yet, tell Adams who has shown Batman "dirty" once or twice.  I've even seen Adams draw Batman with his shirt off!  I could hardly recognize him.

And, Joel when a book is entitled Batman Year 100 and you don't know it is Batman I find that really hard to believe.  You really can't tell that is Batman?



When Pope conceived Year 100 it was set in the future, much like Generations.  JB altered costumes (take a look at the New Gods) in Generations and I was more than pleased with the outcome.

Can you tell Miller's Batman is Batman?






Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 6:01pm | IP Logged | 11  

Ray pretend it is like Generations or the Phantom.  You know what I mean?

The Batman in Year 100 is Batman. 
Back to Top profile | search
 
Joel Tesch
Byrne Robotics Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 May 2006
Posts: 2830
Posted: 09 August 2008 at 6:11pm | IP Logged | 12  

In your opinion Joel and that's it. 

Uh, did I say otherwise? I said "it's just a matter of personal taste." Of course it's just my opinion. Just as your posts are your opinion.

You just thought it was "cool" when John changed things but "not cool" when Pope did. 

More accurately, I thought it looked good when JB did it and I don't think what Pope did w/ Batman looks good.  

Cooke can draw circles around most artists today and for that matter so can Pope. 

In your opinion Michael and that's it. :-)

What is the Batman supposed to be?  A sleek, "I don't get my costume dirty", character?  Tell Frank Miller or, better yet, tell Adams who has shown Batman "dirty" once or twice.  I've even seen Adams draw Batman with his shirt off!  I could hardly recognize him.

Now you're being ridiculous.

And, Joel when a book is entitled Batman Year 100 and you don't know it is Batman I find that really hard to believe.  You really can't tell that is Batman?

Don't be stupid. Yes, I am able to read. Reread my post above. I explain my opinion pretty clearly there.

Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 23 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login