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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133328
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 1
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$5 will get you $10 that nobody will pay attention to any new style guide.
**
Of course they won't. And therein lies the lunacy. When I started at Marvel, I
had to put up with my stuff being redrawn to keep it "on model", even tho such
variations as I brought to the page were actually more directed to restoring
Kirby's original designs. (When I did the X-Men in IRON FIST I had to put up
with Dave Cockrum redrawing the faces, even tho that was my "audition" for
the title!)
Time was Marvel and DC alike had draws full of 20 year old clip art that could
be slugged into any ad or promotional art because the characters still looked
like that..
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Flavio Sapha
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Brazil
Posts: 12912
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 2
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Lopez's art's great but it is 20 years old or more
+++
Lopez recently drew a JLA arc. There's the new style guide, right there.
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Dave Aikins
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 2110
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 3
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Lopez is my all time comics hero. I'm 35 years old and that style guide is
my DC. I've tried to buy the style guide, but it tends to sell for over
$300...
Having said that, part of this discussion is that the industry has changed.
More variety is great! However, if the industry can't maintain sales, then
one option is to see if variety is to blame.
You can't look at the diversity of product and say "but I love it!" if there
aren't enough buyers to support that approach.
My opinion, and then I'll go away, is that consistency for the monthlies
should be martial law, but that special projects for specific audiences
should never go away. You'd just have to make sure that the monthlies
are just as could as special projects, so that things like Dark Knight
Returns don't come out and steal the monthlies thunder.
Unfortunately, that's probably impossible to do.
However, if you had quality like ONeil/Neal Adams era on a monthly, you
might not be as distracted by something "stand-alone" like Miller's Dark
Knight Returns.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 10:55am | IP Logged | 4
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Fair enough Dave.
I can't see sales going back to anything near what they were in the 60s-70s-80s-90s and whether they are out monthly or not isn't going to produce more sales. The reasons for that have been listed on this forum many times.
I can't think of too many Marvel or DC books I purchase monthly because, for me, most of them are junk. I used to buy Cooke's Spirit and will get an odd issue of Bernet's Jonah Hex or something Simonson does but other than that the last DC I did buy was a JSA book Ordway drew (out a few weeks ago and to top it off I have to buy some other issue to find out who is the real Power Girl). Marvel? The last one was a reprint of Kirby's last FF issue "done right" as best Marvel could.
I buy for artists and writers I like (mainly artists) not characters and probably for the reason this thread has so many posts.
Edited by Michael Retour on 09 August 2008 at 10:55am
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Anthony Frail
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 09 October 2007
Posts: 960
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 5
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What about those drawings would you say wouldn't "capture the
imaginations of the youth of today"?
It certainly captured my imagination when I was a child; that said, I'm
comparing it to the popular art styles of today and it doesn't seem like it
might appeal to the same fanbase.
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:16am | IP Logged | 6
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I'd sure love to see a breakdown of the demographics of who buys comics. I'd bet the under 20 crowd is not even 10%, if that.
My son is 21 and he doesn't look at any of them and never has. He likes the movies (most of which I do not). I just don't feel you can capture the stuff the creators put down on paper on a movie screen, with some rare exceptions and the Batman movies (for me) have not been the exceptions.
I liked Sin City but wish they would have stuck to one story. Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow was also very good.
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:23am | IP Logged | 7
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Hey! Garcia-Lopez's name popped out in this thread?
I wish I could read something drawn by him every hour of the day!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133328
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 8
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What about those drawings would you say wouldn't "capture the
imaginations of the youth of today"?
++
It certainly captured my imagination when I was a child; that said, I'm
comparing it to the popular art styles of today and it doesn't seem like it
might appeal to the same fanbase.
••
With books selling on average less than half of what they did -- and
those the best sellers! -- when Jose did that Style Guide, I'd say trying to
appeal to the modern fanbase is about the same as chugging back a big
frothy mug of hemlock.
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Francesco Vanagolli
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 June 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 3130
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:39am | IP Logged | 9
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My first Garcia-Lopez comic book was the amazing, unforgettable BATMAN VS. THE INCREDIBLE HULK. I was 12 years old.
And it was probably the American comic book with the best artworks I had seen in my life. But, you know, Garcia-Lopez drawn superheroes. Pope drawn a guy with a costume. I haven't YEAR 100, but I have seen some arts, and they're good. But that's not a superheroes comic book. No way. Superheroes = fantasy, grandeur, irreality. Stuff like Pope's Batman is good, perfect for stand alone comics, Elseworld... but, please, give me superheroes when I'm searching for superheroes.
Now I'm 25 years old and Garcia-Lopez's work still appears terrific to me. His Superman is the best after JB's, in my opinion. I'd read those stories everyday, and they would always seem perfect to me. THAT's what I want in a superheroes comic book.
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Orlando Teuta Jr
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1043
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:46am | IP Logged | 10
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It could be some are confusing drawing on model as drawing in a particular style. I think back of artists working at DC around the time the model of characters were enforced. No one thinks Kurt Swan, Joe Kubert and Carmine Infantino as drawing like Lopez, yet their Superman, Hawkman, and Flash were on model.
JB, is there any way you can post some of those Lopez style guides?
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Michael Retour
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006
Posts: 932
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 11
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Francesco Paul Pope's work isn't "Superheroes = fantasy, grandeur, irreality?"
Really? Isn't it just a different style than others? I see all the things you mentioned below.
Edited by Michael Retour on 09 August 2008 at 11:50am
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Warren Leonhardt
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 July 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 454
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| Posted: 09 August 2008 at 12:10pm | IP Logged | 12
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My opinion, and then I'll go away, is that consistency for the monthlies
should be martial law, but that special projects for specific audiences
should never go away.
++
I agree with this 110% - they'd need a lighter tone to the monthly stories, heavily emphasizing to the writers that wrapping it up in 22 pages with enough of a hanger to keep you coming round for the next one is the way to go - formulaic as it is - every successful TV show does that today and it works. Plus, making it easier to find, etc. etc. And definitely leave room for playing around with them for the specialty shops.
It seems that the only 'title character' comics (Superman/Batman/Spider-Man/X-Men) doing this consistent look/feel are the ones commissioned by the WB Studios & based on the cartoons. The original material (in this case the cartoons) is episodic and consistent, so the comics seem to reflect that established look & feel very well. There might be plenty of others not based on tv shows that execute as well, but I'm not schooled enough to pick them out of a crowd.
You know what? Nobody's drawn in the 'on-model' spirit like Jose-Garcia Lopez's example for SO LONG - I think it'd stand apart. In a good way! There are 2 generations of younger readers who've never seen it! I walked into an LCS the other week, and I saw kids looking at a Mulleted Superman, a Robot Superman, and a Zombie Spider-Man, Wolverine, etc. All of which they liked because they never really saw the 'normal' one before.
It's as much of a gamble as any other style guide (if it were adhered to) in my opinion. Trying to play catch up to the 'new' styles out there is a losing proposition - it'll risk looking like a knock-off if you miss.
To take the lead, they need some truly appealing visual revamp coming from within. Timm & Matsuda managed exactly that for 'The Batman: Animated' - sticking to the feel & look of Batman - no armor, egyptian getup, snarling animal teeth. 'Batman: Beyond' was gonna be done with or without BT & crew, so they hopped on it and made it work for them.
Ergo, JGL/Perez type guides could do the trick, if it's followed through in editorial (by damn good artists who know what works & what to leave alone) & also backed up with a logical marketing plan based in common sense. Is that an impossible ideal? I have no idea about the business side of comics in general, so I'm talking through my hat here.
Edited by Warren Leonhardt on 09 August 2008 at 2:53pm
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Topic Closed)
