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Paul H. Kupperberg Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 July 2008 Location: United States Posts: 228
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 11:55am | IP Logged | 1
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Knut sez: "You don't approach someone like Alex Toth or Harlan Ellison for instance to ask for criticism and then try to argue against it."
If you ask someone for their criticism because you respect their abilities in the area, you would hope, if they decide to give it, it be given to you graciously, and you should take it in the same spirit--and you would also hope that you can respond to said criticism, open a dialog, in an effort to better understand what you did wrong in their opinion OR to explain your thinking on the assumption that there are either mitigating circumstances or more than one way to solve a creative problem.
I never had an encounter with Toth (though I've had run-ins with Ellison), but I've heard enough stories by people who did. He was obviously an unhappy man who, in spite of possessing an enormous talent, lacked much in the way of self-esteem (why else would he take such quick and ridiculous offense to bullshit like the Mike Allred incident?). People like that take of their reputations to just be assholes and bullies. There's a big difference between constructive criticism and trying to crush someone's spirit...much as I applaud Toth's talent (he is, IMO, one of the three greats of all time, with Joe Kubert and Will Eisner), that doesn't excuse being a dick.
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Michael Retour Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 May 2006 Posts: 932
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:04pm | IP Logged | 2
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Now what would Toth say about this? It looks like a quick sketch to me. The Johnny Quest pages Toth slammed into Rude on were 20 years old. Toth was one of the greats that's for sure and I think, in his own way, he was trying to really help Rude out.
Edited by Michael Retour on 02 August 2008 at 12:07pm
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:09pm | IP Logged | 3
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"that doesn't excuse being a dick. "
I'm not saying it does. I may have been explaining myself poorly. What I meant was that with their reputation, I wouldn't expect them to react positively to being contradicted. you know: "Don't poke the bear".
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
Who cares why the characters moved? |
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Seriously, that's a question? Who cares why they moved? Well, because, as I said, there's no time for them to move. If Goon #1 threatens to kill girl, why would not only he but the girl, the goons (not to mention the room itself) move around? Logically, Moth should be striking Goon #1 from the back and it should be happening in next to the window since, you know, Goon #1 is clearly shown in next to the window. If I'm wrong, tell me why.
QUOTE:
Frankly, I believe you're making invalid criticisms. |
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Frankly, I don't think you've even read them. Or else would you care to explain why they are invalid? Just saying it doesn't work. You have to elaborate. If you don't want to, that's fine, we'll just agree to disagree. But don't tell me I'm wrong and expect me to agree with you.
QUOTE:
I
could take a page by Jack Kirby and show you inaccuracies... |
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Then do so instead of expecting me to take your word for it.
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Kirby would draw costumes different all the time. |
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We're talking about figures, not costumes. Inconsistent costume details simply don't rank with inconsistent whole figures. It's slovenly storytelling to establish one or more figures on a page or in a panel, then just have those figures disappear inexplicably later on.
QUOTE:
Have you, or have you not,
ever seen his paintings? |
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What do his paintings have to do with anything? Stick to the discussion at hand. I never said Rude couldn't draw or paint well. Sheesh, why do you think I would even have a copy of the Moth trade if I wasn't a fan? I'm talking about storytelling, particularly one sequence which comes off to me as sloppy.
QUOTE:
I think both examples of Moth pages are near perfection. |
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I think you're wrong and have taken the time to explain why. It's up to you whether or not you actually want to read and consider my points.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 02 August 2008 at 12:25pm
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Bryan White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 February 2005 Posts: 460
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 5
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Alex Toth even mentioned in his notes that he hates doing critiques and that Steve Rude had talent.
I think there is a difference in being totally honest and being totally honest & insulting. Toth seems to be given a pass on his mind reading assumptions he made of the piece in question, about Rude faking it and not doing research.
I really like Rude's art and maybe I'm just dazzled by his "draftsmanship" but I like most everything he does, and very rarely am I pulled out of a story by his art.
I wonder if some of the artists here would be willing to find sequences from Kirby, Adams, Kane and Toth for example and explain why the sequence doesn't work.
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Ray Brady Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3740
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:21pm | IP Logged | 6
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"Who cares why the characters moved?"
-----
Well, me, for one. This is an action sequence. The action should flow from panel to panel without the reader having to presume a lot of off-screen action.
The action in panel 3 could not have followed directly from panel 2. The Moth must have inverted himself so that he could come through the window feet first, and the armed goon must have crossed the room AND turned around in order to be hit like that.
Likewise, the action in panel 4 could not have followed directly from panel 3 unless the characters reoriented themselves. In order for the Moth to spring on the goon upside-down, he would have had to have his back to him, contrary to what we see in panel 3. Why would he reorient himself like this? Why not just spring on him rightside up? I also have no idea why the Moth is spraying the back of that goon's head with gas.
None of these objections make the page unreadable, just awkward. Regardless of how pretty the character illustrations are, the storytelling on that page is flawed. Could you find examples similar to this from Kirby? Probably. You've certainly got thousands of pages to mine. However, the mere fact that Kirby drew them wouldn't suddenly make them good storytelling.
I have indeed seen some of Rude's paintings. Really great stuff, in my opinion. But paintings don't require storytelling, and that's what's being discussed here.
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Paulo Pereira Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 24 April 2006 Posts: 15539
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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I guess I can sort of see now that the Moth could be kicking the goon all the way across the room, but it's not at all clear how this would happen or why the goon would be facing the other way. It might have been clearer if the goon had his back to the Moth. If Rude had established the scene well in the first place, it would have been clearer in general.
Edited by Paulo Pereira on 02 August 2008 at 12:32pm
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 12:57pm | IP Logged | 8
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I went back and finished reading through all of Toth's critique again, and aside from the fact that he sometimes uses the word "Fake" to mean "bad storytelling", I think he's pretty much right 99 percent of it. From having seen Toth do similar stories, hell from having seen a lot of the great strip artists doing similar stories, I can tell why he's annoyed (or upset.) Steve Rude is very talented, and if he was as committed to his storytelling as Toth was or as Toth urged him to be, he could've reached Toth's level. I don't think he has, artistically.
Though to be fair, I'm much better at theory than application myself when it comes to art, composition and storytelling.
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Bosch Fawstin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 141
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 2:17pm | IP Logged | 9
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Alex Toth, just the greatest single illustrator to ever work in comics whose love of truth came out in everything he drew. And if I were the kind of self-promoter I'm called out for being, I'd be posting what he had to say about my first graphic novel right here.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 2:21pm | IP Logged | 10
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That's just hilarious.
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17699
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 4:44pm | IP Logged | 11
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Mike Allred told an Alex Toth story in the back of one of his books...
---
I think I read that in the Mike Allred edition of Modern Masters.
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Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
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Posted: 02 August 2008 at 5:16pm | IP Logged | 12
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I've had a few critiques like this of my writing and after the initial towering inferno of rage I was able to sit back and analyze what they said and learn from the critique. Not that I always agree, I got a recent critique that said I must have been going for a safe ending to a story and instead accidentally ended up with a very dangerous and nasty ending because the actual ending was one the critiquer disagreed with. I still find that offensive, that the critiquer would say that my artistic point of view was incorrect because it conflicted with theirs and thus the story was worthless. Very annoying.
One thing though, there is a reason to give this kind of vicious and brutally honest critique: to get people to listen to it. Often you'll be nice and kind and helpful with your critiques but when you get another piece (story or art) from that person to critique you realize they are making the exact same errors and all of the work you did on the previous critique was wasted because they didn't listen to it. You spend hours on a critique, put a lot of thought and care into it and they ignore it and want you to do another one. Why? Because they liked the positive stuff you said about the first one (and they tuned out the negative stuff) and want to hear it again. When that happens I think the Toth critique would be very beneficial as it would shake them out of their complacency.
I know it helped me.
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