Jodi, I was going with the whole "What did I do wrong? I have no idea what I did wrong!" vibe you were talking about. I lived with that directly for months and then had to deal with it for a couple of months afterwards as I had moved in with another couple of girls and was walking on eggshells trying not to piss them off. They just thought I was recluse, and were wondering why I hardly talked to them.

Very relieved after I talked to my female friend about the original roommate and was able to first curse myself, then laugh about it, and then just relax around my new roommates.

I lived with a guy after the two girls and I have to say I liked the girls better. Every now and again it would get odd (I never pay attention to that time of the month so tend not to notice extra bitchiness), but most of the time the conversation was better (I think my favorite thing in the world is making women laugh... as long as my pants are on), the place smelled better, they made me feel strong by asking for help, opening jars, lifting pianos, that kind of stuff. Overall I had no complaints.

And yes it could just have been they were both attractive young women and I tend to look past and forgive any transgressions just because of that fact.

Nice Guy syndrome.

This isn't directed at Jeremiah, by the by, just triggered by his post.

I know a lot of 'nice guys' who don't get the girl. Hell, when I was in my early twenties I was that 'nice guy' myself. But I really wasn't, and most of the guys I know who would describe themselves as a nice guy really aren't either. They're usually selfish, arrogant, petty, and cheap. They had their life the way they wanted and they wanted any girl that came into that life to wrap around their world and decorate it, not become a part of it, or the focus of it. That's really selfish. Arrogant? To a man if they hit on a girl it was one who was so far out of their leagues they weren't even playing the same sport, and then they'd complain when they got turned down, as if they were doing the girls a favor by asking them out. Then they'd wish a not nice guy on the girl, saying she'll probably end up with a loser/wife-beater and you could see the hope in their eyes. Petty? They were offended when I mentioned that I had a lot more luck with women when I bought nice clothes, had my hair cut, smiled more, danced well, lost weight, gained strength, better posture and the like and most of them didn't want to take any of those steps. Again, they wanted the girl to conform to them, and if she wasn't able to look past the bad clothes, bad hygiene, bad attitude, then it was her loss.

Now, my nice guy friends would point out that I had advantages in terms of having better... potential to work with but honestly I think women don't think in those ways (as a pure scale of 1 to 10 kind of thing) but do look at how kempt and how well spoken and how willing to have fun a man is. True, if a guy doesn't look good he's got to make more of an effort than some others but using that as an excuse to make no effort?

One friend is hopeless. Not a good looking guy, doesn't have much in the way of personality, hopelessly shy, kind of creepy smile, and the only girls he would hit on were choice. Like wow choice. He had very good taste, but no sense. These were girls who I would be reluctant to talk to in a bar setting (which is mostly about the vibe and aesthetics and I always felt more comfortable when I had my ability to talk, my voice, my jokes in play), but he'd ask them out and honestly think he had a shot. I admired his guts but finally after seeing him crash and burn for years I pointed out someone he'd have a better shot with; she was young, pretty but didn't really know it, great deal of potential, would talk to anyone, open, approachable but at a stage in her life where she wouldn't know where she could get to (as in at 21 she'd become aware of the effect she'd have on men, but at 19 she didn't have a clue how to accentuate what she had. Bad glasses, bad haircut, clothes that tried to hide her body). Pure quality and to be a bit of a jerk, an easy pick for me if I hadn't been in a relationship.

So I pointed her out and after he spent a few minutes heming and hawing and talking down her potential he went and talked to her. And, of course, blew it. I don't know what he said, or how he said it but I saw the look on her face. She was taken aback and vaguely insulted and I honestly believe he presented himself to her as if doing her a favor. I seriously wanted to beat my head into a wall.

I'm a little bit sensitive to the whole nice guy thing I guess, having been a 'nice guy' and getting nowhere and then being a 'bad boy' and getting somewhere. But I wasn't a nice guy, I was actually a jerk. And I wasn't a bad boy, I just looked better. And talked more, and danced more, and was more fun to be around.

This quote was intended for the politics thread -- posted there, too -- but I wanted to make sure Wha-Keem saw it:

"We keep marrying other species and other ethnicities... Swedes have pure genes... in America we marry everybody."
-- Fox News' Brian Kilmeade, on Americans

Yup.  We're enslaved by the fact that not only do we need to be desired, we need to be desired by those we actually desire.  And even if we desire a broad spectrum, we nevertheless need to be desired in return by individuals within that spectrum.  Tricky game. All around.

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Indeed. Anyway, according to my therapist I've built the world of mysery and loneliness I live in, so I have no one to blame.

I think there's a distinction between nice guys and low self esteem guys.

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I am the latter...