| Author |
|
Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 19 March 2009 at 4:30pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
OK this stuff really freaks me out, if they caught this one fine, but what about the ones they don't catch.
http://www.thenewsroom.com/details/3655448
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Moyer Hall Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 09 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1135
|
| Posted: 19 March 2009 at 4:47pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
Eeeeek!!! Isn't that kind of what happened in Arachnophobia? Then it
cross-bred with a regular house-spider and all hell broke loose. I need to
watch that movie again...
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 4:54am | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Catching up a bit; Joakim I agree that books that can be read and enjoyed by both sexes is the ideal, but I also believe that girls can read books that are written primarily for girls (Sweet Valley High and the Babysitters Club are the ones I remember as for girls only when I was a boy), and boys should be able to read books that are written primarily for boys.
The situation as it exists seems more about trying to change boys, or lecture boys, rather than just celebrating boys. There are books that celebrate the joys of being a girl and I feel boys should get the same kind of respect. Unfortunately, and this is only from my sampling of modern children's literature (though my sampling is fairly large for a grown man), a lot of the stuff that is ostensibly for boys is often more about lecturing boys about how their personal instincts are wrong. A term that has been used to describe me is an 'Unreconstructed male', and while I think it a clever term I believe it is also an incredibly insulting term; as if either I am broken and need fixing (in both connatations of that word), or men as a whole have been broken and reassembled into a new kind of man and I have avoided the process and maintained my out-moded masculinity. I believe that some writers of children's fiction have had that same thought, as in; what would be the ideal man and how do I convince the boys reading this to become that perfect man?
Nothing inherently wrong with that, I know that a large part of my personality was formed by the books I read as a child and a writer taking that responsibility seriously is a good thing. The problem for me is that I vehemently disagree with their vision of an ideal male and will admit to having an old fashioned view of certain things (like fighting). I'm not saying I'm right on all of those things, though it works for me, but I am saying I can't help but see it as an attempt to stifle my kind of males and stamp us out of existence.
An example: I wrote a story about a werewolf becoming the alpha male of his pack by killing the old alpha male. It was harsh, but funny, and there were no female characters. Partly because there was no space, but mainly because it would get in the way of the theme (boys replacing their fathers). But some friends of mine were insulted that there were no female characters, and that the males were extremely dismissive of the females of their pack. One women set forth a 'solution', introduce a Lady Macbeth type female who manipulates the young male and the alpha male into the fight for dominance. To me that was insulting to men; apparently in her world view men weren't clever enough to scheme well, and also could only end in one logical way; the Lady Macbeth wolf would have to emerge the victor. So I get told I HAVE to change my story because they found it insulting in its dismissiveness, and the solution is to call all my male characters morons and crown an Alpha female. I decided not to do that since it would make an entirely different (and entirely unoriginal, I think there may have been a Lady Macbeth character in a famous play of which I will not name) kind of story. The men who read the story had absolutely no problem with it (other than a worry about how the women would react) and I felt the women were using their sense of being offended as a way to bend me to their will. I just shrugged and said it was a guy story, written by a guy, and meant to be read by guys.
What's wrong with that? And if there is something wrong with that why is there nothing wrong with a girl story, written be a girl, and meant to be read by girls?
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 4:57am | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
Jodi, I've always loved smart girls but after a time I came to realize I valued some stuff more highly. And no, not boobs. Or bottom.
Kindness, compassion, a heart big enough to fit the world with room left over for me. And I got my Angel. My Danielle. There are times when we don't have a lot to talk about since I tend to bore her when I go all intellectual and the like, but the difference seems to work for us
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
I agree that books that can be read and enjoyed by both sexes is the ideal, but I also believe that girls can read books that are written primarily for girls (Sweet Valley High and the Babysitters Club are the ones I remember as for girls only when I was a boy), and boys should be able to read books that are written primarily for boys.
I think no matter how you slice it girls and boys are just different and I must say the books Chuck enjoys, are completely different then the books I like. I think you hit on an untapped market Steve. There are plenty of girl books, but I honestly don't know of a lot of boy books. There used to be, but now it seems boy books are books that are kind of boy leaning, but can be for a girl too. Like the Boxcar Children or The Magic Tree House.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
Steve wrote: ”Catching up a bit; Joakim I agree that books that can be read and enjoyed by both sexes is the ideal, but I also believe that girls can read books that are written primarily for girls (Sweet Valley High and the Babysitters Club are the ones I remember as for girls only when I was a boy), and boys should be able to read books that are written primarily for boys.”
Oh, don’t get me wrong, Steve, I certainly think there’s room for both... though I still question if they need to “gain” their character strengths by “belittling” the other sex. And that would of course go for both categories, i.e. books aimed at girls might be better off without trying to make boys out to be stupid assholes (though there be plenty who are to be sure) and books for boys can be just heroic without them saving damsels in distress all week long.
Steve also wrote: “a lot of the stuff that is ostensibly for boys is often more about lecturing boys about how their personal instincts are wrong.”
What personal instincts are we talking about here, Steve? I mean, some genderized instincts, are not strictly speaking genetic, but things we learn growing up, from our surroundings, including books we read. So I think I’d need to know what instincts you are specifically referring to in order to even form an opinion about whether this is right or wrong (because obviously some taught behaviour can well be wrong... heck even some more “natural” instincts can be wrong in a socially structured society, so...).
More Steve (following Werewolf story example): “What's wrong with that? And if there is something wrong with that why is there nothing wrong with a girl story, written be a girl, and meant to be read by girls?”
No argument from me there. The addition of a Lady MacBeth type character, while clearly a viable option, would (equally clearly to my mind) have altered the story on a fundamental level. As such, I wouldn’t say that all stories requires a certain amount of men and a certain amount females (or the same with representation of skin colour, sexuality, etc), that just reeks of tokenism. But that said, I think we can discuss A) how characters in the story are depicted (for instance, how are the female characters that are there depicted, or vice versa, and it might be particularly important in children’s fiction), and B) whether an all out guy story need be non-inclusive to girls or vice versa. To my mind, and I realise that it does work somewhat differently with children, there’s nothing in and of itself off-putting with reading or watching a story all about girls/women. I’ve not written one myself yet, but I wouldn’t put it outside the realm of possibility. We can then of course start debating what constitutes for girls/boys themes, and I’m sure there’ll be plenty of for girls themes that won’t interest me... just as there’ll be plenty of for boys themes, that won’t interest me either. Just my penny.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Marc Foxx Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5620
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
A great example of a book that was written "for" girls but accessible for boys would be Robert Heinlein's "Podkayne of Mars", which he was challenged to write by his editor, who complained that all of the heroes of his juvenile books were boys. So he wrote Podkayne, which featured a smart, tough, beautiful girl and her kid brother and their adventures in space on a journey from Mars to Venus (iirc).
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
e-mail
|
| |
Steve D Swanson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 04 May 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1374
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
Would like opinions on this, positive and negative, a comic strip I've been working on called Dodge the Bullet. Thanks guys.
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4276& amp;PN=1&TPN=838
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
Steve I think it is good the way it is, but lawyer jokes have been around too long, so it is nothing really new. But, I think if you change the guy to an AIG excutive it would become really funny. This piece seems like it would be a really great topical comic strip. I also think it would be wanted more for the current topic and would stand a great chance to get picked up. Strike while the Iron's hot , as my grandma would say.
You did a great job getting the reactions right on their faces.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 4:27pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
Steve, Jodi touched on some good points to be sure. I'd add this: it struck me that the set up to delivery, in terms of panels, was a bit long. It's not that it's bad as is, but I think you could've made the whole thing that little bit sharper on a more standard 3-4 panels strip. Sort of a question of economy and tightness in the delivery, I guess is what I'm saying. And while the lawyer jokes are old, they're still fun. Wouldn't mind seeing more of your future work. :)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Next week is spring break so I will be away from the computer for the next 7 days, major family time, so everyone have a really great week.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Jodi Moisan Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 19 February 2008 Location: United States Posts: 6808
|
| Posted: 20 March 2009 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
Oh by the way, did anyone else notice Tom's last post sounded like he was stoned? I know he wasn't but he reminded me of the stoner guy in our dorm. LOL
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
|
|