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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 13153
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 4:10am | IP Logged | 1
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Condolences, Joakim.
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:05am | IP Logged | 2
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Steve wrote: ”I conceded her point but then asked that if books written for boys were naturally insulting to girls (damsels in distress and the like), then wouldn't the reverse probably be true? That books written primarily for girls would naturally be insulting to boys? She rejected that argument on the grounds that female writers and educators were too intelligent to make that mistake.”
To be honest I think there’s dual fallacy here, Steve. On the one hand I think your friend’s argument for rejecting yours is about as asinine as they come. There’s no gender in existence which by and large is too intelligent to make such mistakes, partly because it’s not always a question of smarts or lack thereof being the chief cause for the mistake and secondly, intelligence is something rather individual, and things become rather problematic if one tries to tie the characteristic to a gender instead. For the record, some of the smartest people I know are women, so the gender certainly doesn’t lack the capacity, but some other of those smartest people are men, so... I guess you know what I’m getting at there. On the other hand, I do think your premise is flawed. It all presupposes that the only kind of boy fiction that is truly boy fiction requires a damsel in distress. I agree that there shouldn’t be a need to weaken young male characters as a general rule, just as they shouldn’t get their strength at the cost of weak female characters (which clearly has been done in the past). I rather think it’s a question of establishing strong lead characters, whatever, their gender, with credible weaknesses, but not necessarily age old gender stereotypical weaknesses. What I mean is, do we really need to teach boys about the damsel in distress to get boys to read? It’s not as if the damsel in distress is a genetic category inherent in our species, so I’m guessing the key component in terms of story and character recognition is that the boy reader does not feel rejected by the book. In short, I guess my point is that I don't see why a "boy" book should exclude potential girl readers or vice versa.
Adding to this, I’m guessing (and Don could probably provide more insight) that the way adults (not only teachers) around any specific child affects the atmosphere of learning and interest in learning. If your parents aren’t readers, you’re probably more likely not to become an avid fan of the practice, simply because they won’t expose you to it as much as some heavily reading parents may. And also, looking at how differently boys and girls are still treated in society at large (from “simple” things like boys running around like wild fire are encouraged whereas girls up to more complex ones). It is not entirely incredible that girls in general are more geared towards quiet activities like reading while boys aren’t. And then that in itself may generate the problem of what the boys “should” be expecting from the practice if ever attempted. So to speak.
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3597
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:11am | IP Logged | 3
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Thanks for the encouraging words re:The Book Whisperer. Yes, I am mighty proud of my wife.
Joakim, yes my wife's name is Donalyn. I know that makes us Donald and Donalyn. Our return address stamp says DM2(squared) instead of The Millers. Our song is The Power of Two by The Indigo Girls. Oddly her sisters name is Robin and she married a guy named Rob. It didn't work out.
Steve you raise some interesting questions I talked to my wife, and she says that the main reason that boys are generally disenfranchised as far as reading goes, is that teachers pick the books that students have to read, and most teachers, being female skew toward chik-lit. I can say that her book does not really distinguish to much between male vs. female literature, rather she embraces every student as a reader at their own level. They get to choose thier own books, and so develop a love for reading ointhier own terms. she very much does away with the whole class novel, instead allowing students to find examples of what she wants them to learn within the pages of the text that they are reading.
Some quick hit in case you are looking for some guy friendly books: as an aside I have read all of these and they are just as fun for adults as they are for kids.
Brians Saga by Gary Paulsen is almost universally loved by boys.
The Warrior Heir series by Cinda Wiliams Chima
The Extraodinary Andventures of Alfred Kropp by Rick Yancy
Those last two are great books with kickass fight scenes and action adventure galore.
Later, D-
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 4
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To turn this thread toward St. Patrick's Day . . . a song: I've been a wild rover for many a year
And I spent all my money on whiskey and beer,
And now I'm returning with gold in great store
And I never will play the wild rover no more.
chorus: And it's no, nay, never,
No nay never no more,
Will I play the wild rover
No never no more.
I went to an ale-house I used to frequent
And I told the landlady my money was spent.
I asked her for credit, she answered me "nay
Such a custom as yours I could have any day."
chorus
I took from my pocket ten sovereigns bright
And the landlady's eyes opened wide with delight.
She said "I have whiskey and wines of the best
And the words that I spoke sure were only in jest."
chorus
I'll go home to my parents, confess what I've done
And I'll ask them to pardon their prodigal son.
And if they caress (forgive) me as ofttimes before
Sure I never will play the wild rover no more.
chorus
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3597
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:37am | IP Logged | 5
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Thanks Geoff...that's an old favorite of mine....I found myself swaying in my seat as i read.
D-
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 6
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Don wrote: “Joakim, yes my wife's name is Donalyn. I know that makes us Donald and Donalyn. Our return address stamp says DM2(squared) instead of The Millers. Our song is The Power of Two by The Indigo Girls. Oddly her sisters name is Robin and she married a guy named Rob. It didn't work out.”
Oh that’s just awesome! The odd coincidences of that match up really brings a huge grin to my face, Don. And we’re talking Cheshire cat wide. And I think I badly needed that at this point.
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 7
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A little Irish Humour:
Brenda O'Malley is home as usual, making dinner, when Tim Finnegan arrives at her door. "Brenda, may I come in?" he asks. "I've somethin' to tell ye." "Of course you can come in, you're always welcome, Tim. But where's my husband?""That's what I'm here to be tellin' ye, Brenda. There was an accident down at the Guinness brewery...""Oh, God no!" cries Brenda. "Please don't tell me...""Sure and I must, Brenda. Your husband Seamus is dead and gone. I'm sorry." Brenda reached a hand out to her side, found the arm of the rocking chair by the fireplace, pulled the chair to her and collapsed into it. She wept for many minutes. Finally she looked up at Tim. "How did it happen, Tim?""It was terrible, Brenda. He fell into a vat of Guinnesss Stout and drowned.""Oh my dear Jesus! But you must tell me true, Tim. Did he at least go quickly?""Well, no Brenda......no.""No?""Fact is, he got out three times to pee."
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Donald Miller Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 03 February 2005 Location: United States Posts: 3597
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 8
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I'm happy that i could bring a grin to you...she certainly makes me smile everyday...and to be able to share some of that joy when it you need it is a gift to me as well...stay strong brother.
Don
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:16am | IP Logged | 9
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And some more:
An Irish man walks into a pub. The bartender asks him, "what'll you have?"
The man says, "Give me three pints of Guinness please."
So the bartender brings him three pints and the man proceeds to alternately sip one, then the other, then the third until they're gone. He then orders three more.
The bartender says, "Sir, I know you like them cold. You don't have to order three at a time. I can keep an eye on it and when you get low I'll bring you a fresh cold one."
The man says, "You don't understand. I have two brothers, one in Australia and one in the States. We made a vow to each other that every Saturday night we'd still drink together. So right now, my brothers have three Guinness Stouts too, and we're drinking together.
The bartender thought that was a wonderful tradition.
Every week the man came in and ordered three beers. Then one week he came in and ordered only two. He drank them and then ordered two more.
The bartender said to him, "I know what your tradition is, and I'd just like to say that I'm sorry that one of your brothers died."
The man said, "Oh, me brothers are fine----I just quit drinking."
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Moyer Hall Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 09 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1135
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 10
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Ya'll been busy last evening! My sincerest condolences Wha-Keem... big
bear hug!
St. Patty's day...damn I forgot to wear my St. Pat's thong!
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Geoff Gibson Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 21 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5744
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 11
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Well St. Patrick drove the snakes from Ireland so maybe you just have to let your snake run free Moyer.
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Joakim Jahlmar Byrne Robotics Member

Joined: 10 October 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 6080
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| Posted: 17 March 2009 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 12
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Don wrote: "I'm happy that i could bring a grin to you...she certainly makes me
smile everyday...and to be able to share some of that joy when it you
need it is a gift to me as well...stay strong brother."
Well, it does help having a lot of people around, both IRL and in the virtual world of the net.
And I think somebody ought to give Geoff a pint of Guiness fairly soon. Judging by the jokes he sprouting, methinks he needs one. ;)
Moyer wrote: "Ya'll been busy last evening! My sincerest condolences Wha-Keem... big
bear hug!
"
Thanks. It's appreciated it. :)
More Moyer: "St. Patty's day...damn I forgot to wear my St. Pat's thong!"
Words one rarely thinks one will see combined closely in a sentence... "St." (as in saint, not street, of course) and "thong". And yet... ;)
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