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Jason Schulman
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Joined: 08 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2473
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 3:34pm | IP Logged | 1
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Another series that I wish had never been. (I actually told Louise and Walt Simonson as much when I met them in Oberlin, Ohio fifteen or so years ago -- that I liked their work but I thought that bringing Jean Grey back from the dead so soon after Rachel Summers had become a regular character in Uncanny X-Men was a baaaaad idea. Not that it was their idea!)
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Larry Morris
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Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 2
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QUOTE:
I think X-Factor training young mutants is very true to the concept of the original series. Its only natrual as the team perfected their own powers, they would continue the Professors mission.
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I agree. That's why I cited it as possible thinking on Layton and Simonson's part. I do think the mutant bounty hunter angle was a misstep, but it did not last that long.
QUOTE:
Larry -- one slight correction. Ship was captured from Apocalypse during the Fall of the Mutants storyline, issues 24-26. I think issue 50 is when we found out that he (it?) was created by the Celestials, but he was around for about two dozen issues before then.
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Of course you're correct. What an idiotic brainfart on my part. For whatever reason I was thinking of them returning on Ship after Judgement Wars, for whatever reason momentarily blanking on the fact that Ship was there long before then.
In any case, I think the point still stands. Ship was not an impediment to them being publically accepted heroes. They weren't mutant rights activists. More like they spoke through their deeds, tried to gain human acceptance through their deeds.
This Jean Grey fan is very happy she returned. Whatever I think of what's been done with her post 2001, I enjoyed a whole bunch of stories she was in after her return.
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Joe Zhang
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:25pm | IP Logged | 3
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I really enjoyed the Simonsons' X-Factor. Was disappointed when they rolled the team into the X-Men.
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Brad Hague
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Joined: 19 December 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1714
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:33pm | IP Logged | 4
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I still think that Jean Grey died in Uncanny X-Men 137 and this whole Phoenix is another creature thing is a great big What If?
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Al Cook
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Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:38pm | IP Logged | 5
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Uncanny X-Men 137 would be a great "RESET" point for the Marvel U.
Phoenix is dead. Jean Grey is dead. Neither to ever reappear again.
Claremont leaves X-Men. JB writes & draws X-Men, the Fantastic Four and
Alpha Flight for 8 more years...
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 6:50pm | IP Logged | 6
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Phoenix is dead. Jean Grey is dead. Neither to ever reappear again.
---
Why shouldn't Jean appear again?
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Larry Morris
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Joined: 15 July 2007
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Posts: 622
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 7:28pm | IP Logged | 7
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Well, the way it is now it was Jean who died in UXM 137 again. She's Phoenix again and she's dead again. I suppose it doesn't undo FF 286 and X Factor 1 for it's detractors, but it is something of a return to the former status quo.
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Chris Durnell
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Joined: 26 February 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1235
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:17pm | IP Logged | 8
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To me, the initial Simonson issues - #8-#24 were very enjoyable, but afterwards it fell apart. Apocalypse was a good foe, but his original henchmen were a poor man's Brotherhood (the Alliance of Evil, I think?). Cameron Hodge's group the Right also had a lot of possibilities, but otherwise the title really lacked good villains.
I agree that I also did not like the characterization of Scott. I know what the writers were trying to do, but it just simply did not work. There was no way Scott could leave Madeleine without looking bad. And simply making her an evil clone used by demons was just too bizarre.
I wonder how much of the mess X-Factor became was truly because of what the writers intended, and how much of it was due to editorial fiat and X-office politics.
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Victor Rodgers
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Joined: 26 December 2004
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 10:50pm | IP Logged | 9
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I think Louise Simonson did a good job of repairing Scotts character. Because once things calmed down and he regained his sanity. He spent all his time hunting for Maddie and his son.
I also think Claremont did a good job repairing the damage done to Maddie. She comes across as a full character in her final appearences. o the point I actually like her. Which is an about face to my previous opinon. Im kinda dreading Inferno because I know she is going to die.
Also the dream sequence Marc Silversti drew where Maddie is losing her idenity to Jean Grey is fantastic. Both the art and the scripting.
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Larry Morris
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Joined: 15 July 2007
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| Posted: 17 June 2008 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | 10
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I've think we've discussed this before, but I didn't like her early Scott. Scott cuckoo for cocoa puffs is not my cup of tea. I liked her later stuff better. After a year or two, I thought she handled the characters better.
I really like her Scott in things like Judgement Wars and Xtinction Agenda. Claremont scripted what was, IMO, the X Factor story where Cyclops was handled best. Endgame where he sends Nathan to the future.
I don't think the biggest Cyclops fan in the world is going to argue that the way it was handled was correct. They should have found a better way to separate him and Maddie if that's what they wanted.
You can either get past what happened and move on or you can't. Anyone who can't I can certainly empathize because I can't get past what's happened this decade.
I didn't view what Claremont did with Maddie so much damage control as character work. She hadn't been damaged to the extent Scott had. He just fleshed her character out some. I've always wondered if he knew, at that point, that they were turning her bad. IMO, his Uncannys are more sympathetic to her than to Scott.
He may or may not have liked having to turn her evil.
What are you reading the books chronologically, Victor?
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Greg McPhee
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Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5089
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| Posted: 18 June 2008 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 11
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Im now reading Essential X-Men 8. So let me state here a public apology to Marc Silversti for all the cracks I made on his work. It has been first rate here. I lumped him in with the other Image guys and that was wrong. Also Claremont seems to have gotten thing on track. The Advesary story is one of my favororite X-Men storylines ever.
===========================================================
Marc Silvestri is a great artist, and he only got better. His work on Wolverine is some of my favourite art in comics from the 80's/90's.
I've started re-reading X-Factor based on this thread, and I have to say I have found the Layton issues a slog. The Jackson Guice art is the saving grace.
Moving on to the first 4 Simonson issues they are an improvement, but aren't as good as I remember.
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Glenn Greenberg
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 18 June 2008 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 12
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<<<Well, the way it is now it was Jean who died in UXM 137 again.>>>
Not so sure about that. I thought that it was established--perhaps too
subtly--that Jean had accepted and merged with the Phoenix force by the
time the Morrison run began.
<<<I suppose it doesn't undo FF 286 and X Factor 1>>>
I would hope not! I liked those issues, and the stories in X-FACTOR that
followed them.
<<<it is something of a return to the former status quo.>>>
Yes. A pretty clear case of one person (or persons, in case this was an
editorial mandate rather than just something the writer wanted to do)
going out of his way to undo the work of others simply because he
personally didn't like something that was done years earlier--instead of
just focusing on telling the very best stories he could. Because, really,
what purpose did the death of Jean serve in Morrison's story? It was an
afterthought, a throwaway bit. It turned her into a VICTIM. Cannon
fodder. And it wasn't even a prominent A-list X-Men villain who killed
her--it was some character created by Morrison, disguised as Magneto.
Huh???????
(Jean's return would have had little to no credibility had JB not been
involved. But he WAS involved, and that made it credible in my eyes.)
Then again, given what Morrison did to Jean, maybe something good will
actually come out of his tenure on BATMAN--maybe he'll put Jason Todd
back in the grave too.
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Topic Closed)
