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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 5:05pm | IP Logged | 1
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That's a sweet JB cover on the first page of the thread.
I like the idea of Bruce Wayne traveling the world to gain the knowledge and
skills needed to become Batman as well.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 2
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The original origin does not emphasize him as a world traveller.
The origin says he "prepares himself for his career." There is nothing to
indicate how he does this, but we can safely assume there was more
involved than becoming a buff scientist. Unless you want to assume he
brought the education to him, he would have had to seek out the education.
The shorthand form of the origin, seen above, in now way excludes world
travel. Later expansion of that origin -- revelation, not retcon -- made
world-travel part and parcel of Bruce's quest.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 3
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The fuel for Batman's obsession is (and should be) that his parent's killer
is
out there somewhere and hasn't been caught.
Bruce swears (at his bedside, in the scene above; at his parent's
graveside in other versions) to spend the rest of his life "warring on
all criminals". (Emphasis added.) Chill is only part of that war and,
indeed, in the story in which Batman finally confronts Chill, it seems
apparent that he is actually surprised the fates have presented him with
such specific closure. But the closure is only to that part. Indeed, a
subtle subtext of Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT is that Bruce has slipped
over the edge of sanity precisely because in retiring he has betrayed
his oath. Being Batman is not part of his psychosis, it is his chief defense
against it.
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Greg Kirkman
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 6:41pm | IP Logged | 4
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Exactly.
Some have said that Batman seeks vengeance on all criminals because they are basically substitutes for the man who killed his parents. I disagree with this. The original backstory makes it clear that young Mr. Wayne is waging war on all criminals. He has felt the devastating effects of crime, and devotes his life to combating it.
In my view, Batman seeks justice, not vengeance. He seeks to protect the innocent, not to punish the guilty. He is not taking his anger for one man out on an entire sub-class of society.
Finding Joe Chill was just icing on the cake. Note that Batman didn't retire after the Wayne murder case was solved. The man responsible for the creation of the Batman may have been killed, but the reason for the Batman's very existence--to battle the criminal element in all its forms--was still very much present.
And, unfortunately, that subtle subtext of DKR tends to go over people's heads. Many read that book, see an obsessive and violent Batman (which is entertaining and interesting in the context of that story), and think that's what the norm for the character would be. But, as you said, JB, Batman's excessive tactics and actions in that story are clearly a result of guilt and overcompensation for breaking his oath to wage war on crime.
Batman is not crazy, nor does he seek petty revenge. He is a hero. He seeks justice. He protects the innocent. He represents order in an insane world.
Edited by Greg Kirkman on 15 March 2008 at 6:43pm
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Ron Chevrier
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 8:18pm | IP Logged | 5
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I just had a notion; d'you suppose Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne could have inadvertently bumped into each other or had an adventure together without realizing it in the years that they traveled the globe?
I mean sure, the world is big enough that those two specific individuals meeting prior to their costumed careers is stretching the credibility factor, but then again, maybe they were both drawn to a specific spot in the world because it was a trouble magnet. Each would have different reasons for being there; Clark to help, and Bruce to punish the guilty, but it might make for an interesting adventure.
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Chris Durnell
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 10:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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Dr Strange learned "Marvel magic" under the Ancient One. He did not learn a real world tradition. Wanting to make actual magical traditions part of Dr Strange's magic misses the point. At minimum, "real" magical traditions are only a shadow of the magic that Dr Strange, Baron Mordo, Dormammu, etc. control.
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 7
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"I just had a notion; d'you suppose Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne could have inadvertently bumped into each other or had an adventure together without realizing it in the years that they traveled the globe?"
They did in the Pre-Crisis stories. The first of which (in character history if not publication history) is, I think, the Flying Fox story. IĻ'm not sure about Post-Crisis.
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John Enda McDonagh
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 8
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http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000079836&messageID=2002484114
http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?threadID=2000079836&start=0&tstart=0
Here's a list I've been adding to since I first compiled one in about 2000:
Kirigi - Martial Arts-Bat - #431
David Cain - Martial Arts - Det #734
Henri Ducard - Martial Arts, Marksmanship - Det #599
Chu Chun Li - Martial Arts - Det #599
Tsunetomo - Martial Arts - Det Ann #3
Willie Doggett - Manhunting, Survival Techniques - LOTDK #1
Harvey Harris - Detective Work - Det Ann #2
Dan Mallory - Trailing, Detective Work - Bat Chron #6
Shao La - Taoism - LOTDK #52
? La Salle - Body Building - Bat #435
Frederick Stone - Demolitions - Bat #435
Mark Jenner Driving - Bat #435
Peter Allison - Gymnastics - Bat #435
Raphael Digiorda Archery - Bat #435
Aurelius Boch - Toxicology - Bat #435
? Webber - Acids - Bat #435
? Shastri Ophidia - Bat #435
? Campbell - Electronics (presumed) - Bat #435
Unnamed Knife Expert - Knives - Bat #435
? Kingsley Chemistry - Bat #434
Alfred Pennyworth - Disguises, Acting, Vocal Mimicry - Bat Ann #13
Ted Grant Boxing - Robin #31
Oliver Queen - Archery - GA #134
John Zatara Escapology - JLA:BB #2
Max Dodge - Escapology - B:GK #29
Arthur McKee - Maintaining Criminal Aliases - Bat #589
The Rhana Bhutra - Peace (presumed) - Supes: The Odyssey
Unnamed Medical Examiner - Coroner's Work - B:GK #1
Unnamed Convicted Killer - Savate - B:SOTB #0
Unnamed Ninjas - Using Shadows, Psychology Of Fear - B:SOTB #0
Unnamed Monks - Healing Arts - Ultimate Guide
Unnamed Bushmen - Reading Environment, Hunting - B:SOTB #0
Unnamed Cattlemen - Bolas Use - Ultimate Guide
Unnamed Yanomami Hunters - Blowpipe Use - Ultimate Guide
The issue numbers relate to a first or significant mention / appearance of the character (in relation to training Batman).
Hope this helps,
Colin
Thanks to Two Face 22's exhaustive list, there really isn't much to add other than the unnamed medical examiner from GOTHAM KNIGHTS # 1, the Rhana Bhutra from SUPERMAN: THE ODYSSEY and Alfred, who taught Bruce about acting. Also, in a development inspired by the animated series, Zatara was said to have trained Bruce Wayne, too (JLA: BLACK BAPTISM # 2).
I'd eliminate Mary McGinnis (who wasn't one of Batman's teachers; she was killed because the killer thought she could implicate him) and Lady Shiva (who worked with Batman later but not at the beginning of his career).
Here's the list of appearances:
BATMAN ANNUAL # 13: Alfred Pennyworth.
BATMAN CHRONICLES #6: Dan Mallory.
BATMAN: GOTHAM KNIGHTS #1: unnamed medical examiner.
BATMAN: GOTHAM KNIGHTS #29: Max Dodge.
BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT # 1: Willy Doggett.
BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT # 52: Shao-La.
JLA: BLACK BAPTISM # 2: John Zatara.
ROBIN # 31: Ted Grant.
SUPERMAN: THE ODYSSEY: The Rhana Bhutra.
*****
Pre-Crisis:
DETECTIVE COMICS # 226: Harvey Harris.
DETECTIVE COMICS # 227: Barrett Kean.
DETECTIVE COMICS # 244: Lee Collins.
UNTOLD LEGEND OF THE BATMAN # 1: Amos Rexford.
And, while it doesn't exactly involve a teacher, LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT # 95 contains a flashback to Bruce's battle with the Magician in Europe.
Henri Ducard (Manhunting, Deduction, Marksmanship)
Tsunetomo (Martial Arts)
Kirigi (Martial Arts)
Chu Chun Li (Martial Arts)
David Cain (Martial Arts)
Willy Doggett (Manhunting)
Dan Mallory (Trailing, PI work)
Harvey Harris (Detective work)
Shao-La (taoism)
? LaSalle (Body-Building)
Frederick Stone (Demolition, Explosives)
? Kingsley (Chemistry)
Mark Jenner (High Speed Driving)
Peter Allison (Gymnastics)
Aurelius Boch (Toxicology)
? Webber (Acids)
? Shastri (Ophidia - snakes)
? Campbell (Electronics)
Unnamed (Knife Throwing) (In 'The Many Deaths Of Batman')
Unnamed Borneo criminal (Savate)
Ted Grant (Pugilism - boxing)
Oliver Queen (Archery)
Max Dodge (Escapology)
Zatara (Escapology)
As for Alfred, he taught Bruce about acting AFTER Bruce returned to Gotham.
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John Enda McDonagh
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | 9
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Comic Book Resources - Comic Book News, Reviews and Commentary ... ![]()  ",""," ","11 gr& #101en dow&am p;#110loads",&qu ot;1 e-ma 05ls/mon& #116h","Lin
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She's running away from her father, the Rhana Butra. (Think Dalai Lama. ... The Rhana Butra has died. This causes Superman to flash back to the story. ...www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=pipeline&article=834 - 25k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this |
Mikishawm: I think I know who you are! - DC Comics Message Boards ![]() ",""," ","Linke&am p;#100 to gr&a mp;#101en sit es","0 p& ;#111p-ups",&quo t;Testin& #103 1 dow& #110load"," More info... ","",'green','siteadvisor:','M
 5kishaw&# 109: I th 05nk I k 10ow who& #32you ar& #101! - DC  Comics  Messag
 1 Board 5',1.0)" style="Z-INDEX: 999; POSITION: absolute" onmouseout=shut(event) height=16 src="siteadvisor:green.gif" width=16>
Gregorian Falstaff was a reclusive billionaire who moved to Gotham in 1978 and immediately set off alarm bells with Lucius Fox, who believed that Falstaff's ...www.infiniteearths.org/dcu/obscurecharacters_files/BatmanChars4.htm - 214k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this |
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John Enda McDonagh
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:39pm | IP Logged | 10
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Bruce Wayne becomes master escape artist under Zatara's tutelage, meets young Zatanna. [JLA: BLACK BAPTISM #2] (it would have to be before Allura places curse on Zatara & Zatanna)
Evil elemental Allura places curse on Zatara & his daughter Zatanna that would kill them both if they ever saw each other again. Zatara left Earth to search for good counterpart of Allura in order to reverse curse. Zatanna (18) became stage magician, wearing costume like her father's while also searching for her father. [WhWh #26, 4/87]
Bruce Wayne heads back to Gotham City after completing his training with various instructors over past several years: Kirig [BATMAN #431], Mark Jenner, Frederick Stone, Kinsley, La Salle, Peter Allison, Raphael Di Giorda, Hank Jones [BATMAN #434], Webber, Aurelius Boch, Mr. Shastri, Mr. Campbell, Mary McGinnis [BATMAN #435], Cain [BATMAN #567], Harvey Harris [DETECTIVE ANN #2, '89], Tsunemoto [DETECTIVE ANN #3, '90], Chu Chun Li, Henri Ducard [DETECTIVE #599], Rhana Butra [SUPERMAN:ODYSSEY], Zatara [JLA: BLACK BAPTISM #2], unnamed medical examiner [BATMAN: GOTHAM KNIGHTS #1], Dan Mallory [BATMAN CHRONICLES #6], Max Dodge [BATMAN: GOTHAM KNIGHTS #29], Willy Doggett [BATMAN: LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT #1], Shao La [BATMAN: LOTDK #52], Ted Grant (Wildcat) [ROBIN #31]
(detective) Master Kirgi Woodley (tracker) Henry Ducard ...
www.comicastle.com/foro/archive/index.php/t-4578-p-8.html
Edited by John Enda McDonagh on 15 March 2008 at 11:48pm
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John Enda McDonagh
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| Posted: 15 March 2008 at 11:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/thread.jspa?messageID=200 4396691
Hi Jeff,
This question comes up a lot on these boards.
I compiled a list some years back and have updated it as the years have gone on. I've posted it a few times here and will do so again:
1.Kirigi - Martial Arts- Bat #431
2.David Cain - Martial Arts - Det #734
3.Henri Ducard - Martial Arts, Marksmanship - Det #599
4.Chu Chun Li - Martial Arts - Det #599
5.Tsunetomo - Martial Arts - Det Ann #3
6.Willie Doggett - Manhunting, Survival Techniques - LOTDK #1
7.Harvey Harris - Detective Work - Det Ann #2
8.Dan Mallory - Trailing, Detective Work - Bat Chron #6
9.Shao La - Taoism - LOTDK #52
10.? La Salle - Body Building - Bat #435
11.Frederick Stone - Demolitions - Bat #435
12.Mark Jenner Driving - Bat #435
13.Peter Allison - Gymnastics - Bat #435
14.Raphael Digiorda Archery - Bat #435
15.Aurelius Boch - Toxicology - Bat #435
16.? Webber - Acids - Bat #435
17.? Shastri Ophidia - Bat #435
18.? Campbell - Electronics (presumed) - Bat #435
19.Unnamed Knife Expert - Knives - Bat #435
20.? Kingsley Chemistry - Bat #434
21.Alfred Pennyworth - Disguises, Acting, Vocal Mimicry - Bat Ann #13
22.Ted Grant Boxing - Robin #31
23.Oliver Queen - Archery - GA #134
24.Richard Dragon Martial Arts - RD#3
25.John Zatara Sleight Of Hand, Arcane Mysteries, Ventriloquism, Escapology - JLA:BB #2, Det #827, Det '833.
26.Max Dodge - Escapology - B:GK #29
27.Arthur McKee - Maintaining Criminal Aliases - Bat #589
28.The Rhana Bhutra - Peace (presumed) Superman: The Odyssey
29.The Ten-Eyed Tribes Of The Empty Quarter 52#30
30.The Lamas Of Nanda Parbat Unknown Bat #663
31.Unnamed Medical Examiner - Coroner's Work - B:GK #1
32.Unnamed Convicted Killer - Savate - B:SOTB #0
33.Unnamed Ninjas - Using Shadows, Psychology Of Fear - B:SOTB #0
34.Unnamed Monks - Healing Arts - Ultimate Guide
35.Unnamed Bushmen - Reading Environment, Hunting - B:SOTB #0
36.Unnamed Cattlemen - Bolas Use - Ultimate Guide
37.Unnamed Yanomami Hunters - Blowpipe Use - Ultimate Guide
Hope this helps!!
Colin
ones you missed:
-Woodley, the tracker (LOTDK 1)
-FBI (Man Who Falls) (to join the FBI, you must get trained)
-prestigious European universities like Cambridge, Sorbonne, etc (SotB 0)
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John Enda McDonagh
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| Posted: 16 March 2008 at 12:04am | IP Logged | 12
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http://darkmark6.tripod.com/batmanind1.html
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