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Topic: "Secret Skin" - Chabon on Costumes (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Matt Reed
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Robotmod

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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 11:58am | IP Logged | 1  

Feels like we need this definition in this discussion.  From m-w.com

Main Entry:
ro·man à clef Listen to the pronunciation of roman à clef
Pronunciation:
\rō-ˌmä(ⁿ)n-(ˌ)ä-ˈklā\
Function:
noun
Inflected Form(s):
plural romans à clef Listen to the pronunciation of romans à clef \-ˌmäⁿ-(ˌ)zä-\
Etymology:
French, literally, novel with a key
Date:
1893
: a novel in which real persons or actual events figure under disguise
 
K&C was a roman à clef.  No denying that.  So it's more than a little absurd to claim that it takes place in it's own universe when, by definition, that universe is based on analogues for real people and actual events.
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Sean Blythe
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 2  

It's not a roman a clef, as strict definitions go. The story of Kavalier and Clay
is not the story of Seigel and Shuster, nor does it parallel that story. (One of
the characters in the novel is an immigrant, escaping from Europe and
coming to America -- a far cry from Jerry Siegel's Cleveland birth, and the
only place Joe Shuster escaped from was Canada.) It's not a thinly veiled
story of Stan Lee -- he actually has a cameo in the book. As do Gil Kane and
Will Eisner. It's a fictional story that takes place in a fictionalized version of
the real world. Take Forrest Gump for example. Take Shakespeare in Love
for another. The mere presence of true-life characters (and even a real-life
industry) does not make a novel a Roman A Clef.
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Michael Roberts
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 12:29pm | IP Logged | 3  

It's a fictional story that takes place in a fictionalized version of
the real world. Take Forrest Gump for example. Take Shakespeare in Love
for another. The mere presence of true-life characters (and even a real-life
industry) does not make a novel a Roman A Clef.

---

While Kavalier and Clay are not direct analogues of Siegel and Shuster,
events in their lives were taken from various real-life events. Joe Kavalier's
escape from Europe and escape artistry was based on Jim Steranko's life, for
example.
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Sean Blythe
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 4  

While Kavalier and Clay are not direct analogues of Siegel and Shuster,
events in their lives were taken from various real-life events. Joe
Kavalier's
escape from Europe and escape artistry was based on Jim Steranko's life,
for
example.

______

You're right. Chabon has an excellent essay on Steranko here.*

The novel also includes the partners getting screwed out of money by
agreeing to a lowball contract (like a number of creators at the time), and
they get slapped with a cease and desist by DC comics (like a number of
creators at the time). These are, as I stated, element, facts, tall tales,
legends taken from the era.

Roman A Clef implies that a novel is little more than a guessing game --
trying to figure out who the author is talking about, who he/she's dishing
on. Valley Of The Dolls. Primary Colors. It assumes that the novel retells a
real story, disguising the characters as a means of gossip, purient
interest, or (in some cases) a closer look at events than might legally be
possible if real names were used.

Not the case here. And this goes to my whole argument. K&C uses real
life elements, no doubt. But it is it's own story, it takes life and turns it
around in its hands, examining its facets and flaws.   And it does it in a
fashion that I think is enormously creative and rewarding. You may not
like it, you may have been bored. Fine. Your prerogative. But to boil it
down to "Every anecdote about Golden Age comic creators with the serial
numbers filed off + Drama + Angst = Pulitzer!" is a ridiculous
oversimplification.

*Sorry, thought I had the link, but I didn't. The essay is called The Joe
Kavalier of Reading PA.

Edited by Sean Blythe on 12 March 2008 at 12:51pm
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 5  

It seems that many of the reasons some didn't like Kavalier and Clay are precisely the reasons that I loved it!
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Peter Svensson
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 6  

Sean: But to boil it down to "Every anecdote about Golden Age comic creators with the serial numbers filed off + Drama + Angst = Pulitzer!" is a ridiculous oversimplification.

Indeed. I'm sorry that you didn't realize I was being flippant with that response. I really did enjoy Kavalier and Clay. It's a good novel, but it does a rely a bit too much on using authentic Golden Age anecdotes with the serial numbers filed off for my taste. As an amateur comics historian, I know exactly which events Chabon refers to and it takes me out of the book each time.
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Sean Blythe
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 7  

As an amateur comics historian, I know exactly which events Chabon
refers to and it takes me out of the book each time.

_____

First of all, Peter, sorry I kept using your words as my example. That was
a unfair of me, given that it was only part of your post. It was actually a
few posts from other people that rankled, and you gave me an easy
copy/paste.

As for the quote above, I actually have a couple of comicbook friends
who have issues with K&C -- I've had this whole discussion before --
because, I think, it's tough fully evaluate something when you're very
close to some of the core issues. I know enough about the Golden Age to
have an intelligent conversation about it, but for whatever reason, I found
a fictionalized tale set in that world to be charming rather than... what's
the word? Blasphemous? Little strong. Irking, maybe. Anyway, I liked it.

I equate some of this to watching House with a real doctor. Some love the
heightened (or ridiculously altered) reality, some lose the forrest for the
trees. I can see how one person's engaging pastiche can be another's
bastardization, though. It's hard to argue, at least, that Chabon's heart
wasn't in the right place. He clearly loves the stuff.
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John Bodin
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 2:18pm | IP Logged | 8  

 Sean Blythe wrote:
It's hard to argue, at least, that Chabon's heart
wasn't in the right place. He clearly loves the stuff.

His heart is in the right place and he clearly loves comics -- I would guess that Chabon's heart is in the right place as far as his writing goes, but not every reader is going to love (or even like) Chabon's writing style.  That's how it is for me -- Chabon has an incredible vocabulary, and he occasionally can turn a phrase that leaps off the page like true poetry . . . but it feels like all too often he's trying to turn a phrase that will leap . . . off . . . the . . . page . . . like true poetry (with all due respects to Bill Shatner).

 

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Sean Blythe
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 9  

John:

Totally fair assessment. I'd be interested to see what you have to say to a
topic I just posted.

SB
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 6:15pm | IP Logged | 10  

Kavalier and Clay are not based just on Siegel and Shuster. They are amalgamations of several different comic book creators. The physical description of Clay, for instance, is almost word-for-word the same as a description of Lou Fine that I read in the Will Eisner Quarterly.

When I was reading it I kept noticing points here and there that tied into anecdotes I'd read, descriptions of recognizable persons etc, although often they were tweaked here and there and a couple of different people were put together.

It certainly reads as a roman-a-clef to people who've read or heard of that period in comics history, but there is a degree of fictionalization in that there is not a one-to-one correlation between the characters and real people.

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Chad Carter
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 7:18pm | IP Logged | 11  

 

I can't remember enough about the novel to comment on how I would react on reading it now. It's been four years? Five?

It may be important to consider Chabon's THE ESCAPIST

 

Again, I can't remember how Chabon's story turned out in the collection I read, but it's probably a more accurate representation of how Chabon feels about superheroes than the novel the character derived from.

I don't get that Chabon is obtuse or dense in his article on costumes...he points out, as luminaries such as JB has pointed out, that the superhero costume as it appears in such crystalline perfection in the comic cannot exist in the real world. The material necessary does not exist; the material is at once a language of comics that is inaccessible but to the trained artist, whose imagination, and ours, perceives the Story behind the mask, the cape, or the ankle wings.

I don't think the point of the article is really to comment on costumes, but on the wonder of the comic book world that evidently takes up a huge space inside of Chabon's rather brilliant head. Whether anyone agrees with how he translates that love, is another argument. I can't defend the cat since, at the time I read the novel and the Escapist stories, I was only beginning to get a feel for comics AT ALL after having been estranged for some years. I can't say my views on comics are the same as they were when I was younger, but then not much IS the same. I might have a totally different reaction if I read Chabon's novel now, and frankly I don't want to go over the same ground twice. I've moved on, for good or ill.

 

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Steve Horton
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 10:51pm | IP Logged | 12  

My Kavalier & Clay experience is a bit different than most. I was enjoying the novel just fine until the introduction of Rosa Saks. After that - I was hopelessly hooked.
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