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Joel Tesch Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 May 2006 Posts: 2830
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 1
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"This is a novel about the immigrant experience, about being Jewish in America, about sexual confusion, about longing and love and the incandescent joy of creation. It's also a damn good yarn about the place of myth in our lives -- religious myths, family myths, and the 4-color funny book kind. "
I agree...it's one of my favorites.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133266
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:38am | IP Logged | 2
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…there is a LOT more going on in K&C than "Every anecdote about Golden Age comic creators with the serial numbers filed off + Drama + Angst ." A lot more than retelling the traditional superhero story in a different way. This is a novel about the immigrant experience, about being Jewish in America, about sexual confusion, about longing and love and the incandescent joy of creation.•• All of which are presented as a roman a klef of the comicbook industry -- and in a form which will be the first time most civilians gain any knowledge of the industry. The history could be better served without imaginary elements layered in to serve the author's agenda.
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Brendan Howard Byrne Robotics Member
FAQ Master Supreme
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4943
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:39am | IP Logged | 3
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I agree, Sean.
This might be the same argument we had about Titanic in another thread. I get the impression that overlaying fictional characters and events onto an environment that actually existed is not always welcomed as a storytelling strategy.
Has anyone here read and/or enjoyed Chabon's Wonder Boys?
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John Mietus Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 9704
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 4
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John Byrne wrote:
I had an odd reason for not reading "Kavalier and Klay". Everything I heard from people who liked the book told me I wouldn't!
It's not the only time that's happened. There have been several writers over the years who I have known immediately to avoid, on the strength of recommendations from critics and friends. |
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Had the exact same gut feeling with the movie "Across the Universe."
Should've trusted my gut.
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Sean Blythe Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 342
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:49am | IP Logged | 5
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All of which are presented as a roman a klef of the comicbook industry --
and in a form which will be the first time most civilians gain any
knowledge of the industry. The history could be better served without
imaginary elements layered in to serve the author's agenda.
________
So Jaws is a bad movie because it's not a documentary on sharks? Raiders
is a fundamentally flawed film because it's not a rigorous study on the
fundamentals of archaeology? Comicbooks are invalid because they are a
lot of people's first introduction to cartain concepts in science and
physics? Jack Kirby's art should be ignored because he wasn't exactly
according-to-Gray's in his depiction of anatomy?
I could not disagree with you more.
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Knut Robert Knutsen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006 Posts: 7374
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:54am | IP Logged | 6
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Where Kavalier and Clay lost the plot for me wasn't in it's sexual elements or its roman a clef or any of the stuff about comics. Even if he seemed almost desperate to squeeze "MEANING" into everything.
It lost me in that sequence with Kavalier sitting in an office in the Empire State Building shut off from humanity for a decade or so drawing the Great American Graphic Novel. Without publishing anything.
With all the great tragedies and scandals in the industry, that hokey kitschy-sentimental ending was the best he could think of? (many mis-steps before that, but that one really killed it for me.)
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Sean Blythe Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 342
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 9:56am | IP Logged | 7
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And Brendan, yes. Wonder Boys is a terrific novel -- funnier and probably
more accessible than K&C or Yiddish Policeman's Union. If I were to
recommend Chabon to anyone, though, it might be Werewolves In Their
Youth, which is a great collection of stories. Mysteries of Pittsburgh is also
entertaining, but flashier and not as accomplished (in my view) as some of
his later stuff.
Didn't love the Sherlock Holmes novel -- name escapes me at the moment -
- which I found a little "literary exercise-y". I'm sure on some Arthur Conan
Doyle forum somewhere, someone's complaining that it wasn't an accurate
depiction of Holmes.
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John Bodin Byrne Robotics Member
Purveyor of Rare Items
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3911
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 10:44am | IP Logged | 8
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The article, like Chabon's Kavalier and Clay, washed over me with an enigmatic, dreamlike obviousness that I could neither grasp nor comprehend.
Or, as my old college roommate said regarding some Springsteen lyrics: "'Endless juke joints in Valentino drag' . . . good God, man -- what does it mean?!"
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 133266
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 10:49am | IP Logged | 9
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ll of which are presented as a roman a klef of the comicbook industry -- and in a form which will be the first time most civilians gain any knowledge of the industry. The history could be better served without imaginary elements layered in to serve the author's agenda. +++ So Jaws is a bad movie because it's not a documentary on sharks? Raiders is a fundamentally flawed film because it's not a rigorous study on the fundamentals of archaeology? Comicbooks are invalid because they are a lot of people's first introduction to cartain concepts in science and physics? Jack Kirby's art should be ignored because he wasn't exactly according-to-Gray's in his depiction of anatomy? I could not disagree with you more. •• Nor could you understand me less, apparently. JAWS is not a roman a klef. It does not tell the story of real people, in real situations, given artificial identities and altered to fit the story the author wants to tell. Sheriff Brody is not an avatar of Constable MacGuffin, a real man, and we are not told, thru the fiction, that MacGuffin/Brody was dealing drugs, or secretly a pedophile. The same is true of Indiana Jones and just about any comicbook story. They are fiction, using references to history as an anchoring point in reality, but not altering history or reality in order to do so. Indy isn't recognizably a real archeologist for whom we need only the "key". And Indy doesn't kill Hitler. The science in comicbooks is not presented as real science. Chabon's book, by virtue of being presented as a roman a klef pretends to be something other than fiction. That is, after all, the whole point of a roman a klef. And frankly, if you don't get this, I must conclude you didn't really get "Kavalier and Klay", either.
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Keith Elder Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1974
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 11:13am | IP Logged | 10
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...for all the mad recombinant play of color, style, and materials that
the superhero costume makes with its limited number of standard
components, it ultimately takes its deepest meaning and serves its
primary function in the depiction of the naked human form, unfettered,
perfect, and free.
This seems to be Chabon's main point, and I think he's probably right, although his language is just a bit too clever, veering into the obfuscatory.
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Sean Blythe Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 July 2006 Location: United States Posts: 342
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 11:33am | IP Logged | 11
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I had an odd reason for not reading "Kavalier and Klay".
***
And frankly, if you don't get this, I must conclude you didn't really get
"Kavalier and Klay", either.
___________
Kavalier and Clay is set in a fictional universe. It is not the fictionalized
story of Seigel and Shuster, nor Lee and Kirby. Yes, it plays upon legends,
tall tales and facts from the Golden Age era of comics, but it exists in its
own universe. It makes no claim to being the official history of the comics
industry. Not even close.
As for telling me that I don't understand the novel, and arguing what this
novel is and is not, I can only refer you to the first quote above, and the
3:49 mark of this video.
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Frank Gurstelle Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 November 2006 Posts: 224
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Posted: 12 March 2008 at 11:53am | IP Logged | 12
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The article about costumes by Chabon was not his best effort.
If anyone is interested, I previously found this article, about Kirby, Big Barda, and love to be much, much better:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060326233017/www.michaelchabon. com/archives/2005/03/a_woman_of_valo.html
Regarding Kavalier and Clay: I read it. For me, it started out wonderfully and just puttered out completely. I did not care for the gay subplot. To me, if seemed to be added merely to create import or gravitas ("See, it has a tortured gay character . . . "). I also thought the whole excursion to the North Pole (or South, can't remember), while by itself was great, in terms of the novel as a whole, it was an unnecessary diverson. I also agree with others that the ending just was too nice and tidey compared to the rest of the novel. But, the protaganist's escape from Europe and the subsequent creation of the Escapist was great, fun stuff.
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