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Mike Farley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2701
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 10:40am | IP Logged | 1
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I hated the fact that DC killed off Robin (even if it wasn't the original).
I especially hated that they did it as a phone in contest.
BUT I hated his 20 years later "you weren't expecting THIS!" resurrection even more. We weren't expecting it because no-one cared. No-one was clamoring for the return of Jason Todd. The only reason anyone cared about his death at all was because of the tacky contest.
His return could have been forgiven if we had at least gotten a good story out of it and a revitalized character (like Bucky over in CAP). But all we got was another "cool" grumpy anti-hero type. Whoopie.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 11:43am | IP Logged | 2
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<<Should add to Martin's comment, tho -- retcon or not, unless something
has happened since I left, Jean had not died at all if
the Death of Phoenix is the "only time" before Morrison killed her.>>
Well, Morrison essentially undid your retcon that Jean was not the person who died on the moon. Still, I share Martin's annoyance because the character had been back since 1986 without dying.
I mean real deaths not end of issue cliffhanger deaths. I don't consider Jean's "deaths" in HIDDEN YEARS or UXM 281 real deaths. Previous issue ends with characters proclaiming her dead, several pages into the next issue we she that she didn't really die.
That's not my idea of a death.
I think she is a bit of a cariacture now, but it's because of what's happened since 2001, not before. I've read very little X Men since Morrison left, but I did read Phoenix Endsong. There is a scene where Wolverine is repeatedly stabbing her and she keeps coming back to life. It just reinforces the notion that she's a resurrection cliche.
It's why I didn't want her anywhere near that cosmic parrot. Everytime she gets tied to it she winds up dead, but everything I've read, since 2001, has intrinsically tied her to it.
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 11:49am | IP Logged | 3
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<<<Well, Morrison essentially undid your retcon that Jean was not the
person who died on the moon.>>>
Which struck me as utter bullshite.
But then again, I was a big fan of the original X-FACTOR and the return of
Jean.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133320
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 12:43pm | IP Logged | 4
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We have all felt the siren call of Great Old Stories. When Chris and I were doing UNCANNY, we wanted to do our own Sauron story, for instance. But we didn't approach it by undoing the original. For too many writers these days -- even those who have been around long enough to know better -- the first instinct all too often seems to be to undo what has gone before.
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Darrell Hempel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 395
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 5
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JB said: "For too many writers these days -- even those who have been around long enough to know better -- the first instinct all too often seems to be to undo what has gone before. "
Which boggles my mind. There is such a rich history from which to mine WITHOUT undermining that which has come before. I dislike those who feel the original stories were "wrong" somehow so they have to "fix" stuff.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133320
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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Thing is, if one has an itch to scratch in that direction, there are plenty of BAD stories that can, with a little spit and polish, be turned into something interesting, even worthwhile.Of course, in a perfect world, we'd never revisit the past except in the most casual ways (Hey! It's him again!) and be forever moving forward (while staying in the same place!)
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35941
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 7
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Kevin Pierce wrote:
| Question to everyone: Are there any characters that died that you feel should never be brought back or should have stayed dead? |
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- Norman Osborn
- Captain Marvel
- Gwen Stacy
- Uncle Ben
QUOTE:
| Also asking the question in reverse: Are there any characters that you felt should have never been killed off? |
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- Aunt May
- Sue Dibny
- Blue Beetle (Ted Kord)
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Darrell Hempel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 395
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:05pm | IP Logged | 8
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The whole concept of the characters "growing and changing" used to be one I subscribed to - until I realized that I don't WANT my heroes to grow old with me. There's something really nice about the idea of them being there for me, in familiar forms, each and every month.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 35941
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 9
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I'm with Don here. Superman should have stayed dead? Seriously?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133320
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:16pm | IP Logged | 10
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Nothing to see there, Matt.
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Larry Morris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 July 2007
Location: United States
Posts: 622
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 1:40pm | IP Logged | 11
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<<But then again, I was a big fan of the original X-FACTOR and the return of
Jean. >>
Same here and I read the Dark Phoenix Saga as it came out. Would I argue that the retcon might have diminished that story? No and I think it was a great story. But Jean was always my favorite X woman and I preferred having her back to leaving UXM 137 intact.
Having her cleared of responsibility for D'bari was just a bonus in my eyes. I acknowledge my bias, though.
My feelings were influenced by how much I liked Jean.
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Emery Calame
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5773
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| Posted: 10 March 2008 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 12
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Matt, if it makes you feel any better Ted Kord is now alive and fighting "time foes"with Booster Gold but it's secret and he has to remain in temporal exile so everyone just thinks he's dead or....DC history will...make...even LESS sense? Or something..
I guess it's the best they could do.
Hell it took a lot longer for DC to admit that turning Hal Jordan into a villain, cosmic lunatic, spirit of vengeance, etc. was a terrible idea.
Maybe someday we'll get Captain Atom and Hawk and Dove (y-chromosome versions) back too.
Edited by Emery Calame on 10 March 2008 at 2:29pm
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