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Gregg Halecki
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 1  

Oh by the way.....

regardless of the broken claw thing and arguements for or against.....that is an INCREDIBLY ugly cover.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 2  


 QUOTE:
Show me how it is more "plausable" or logical for a human being to grow feathered wings that allow him to fly than it is to grow bone claws.

Simple: grow another two joint on your shoulder or back and, voila, a whole new set of limbs.  That's all Angel's wings are, extra limbs.  There are no complex mechanisms involved.


 QUOTE:
Ludicrous to you. Fine opinion to have if you wish, but certainly a subjective matter, not factual, therefore not of much merit for the purpose of proving anything (other than of course what your opinion is).

Well, it's certainly a fact that bones break.  It's also a fact that claws in nature aren't made of bone.


 QUOTE:
Your reply is in itself a reply to you. They are what they are because the script requires it. If some things that the script require are ok, they all must be. If "because they said so" is not valid, than it is not valid. You can't pick and choose.

I don't follow.  What have I been picking and choosing?


 QUOTE:
It has to do with the fact that YOU claim that a mutation HAS to be useful. I pointed out that is is established that you are wrong. It has been shown on page that what you insist upon is NOT the way that it is.

Sorry, Wolverine is not the same as some nameless polydactylous guy from Defenders.

The other comments were JB's but I'd like to comment on some of your responses.


 QUOTE:
Show me an animal -- living, or from the fossil record -- that has feathered wings growing from their shoulderblades capable of supporting several times the animal's weight, and also has two arms and two legs, and you will have an arguement in favor of Angle's wings being acceptable and wolverine's claws not being.

Again, it's less of a stretch to have extra limbs than have bone claws in your forearms.  Multi-limbed creatures have a precedent in fiction.  No creature, fictional or otherwise, has ever been born with wheels instead of legs, however.


 QUOTE:
The common term for this would be to "flick" your finger. I think a similar biological mechanism could be at play in Logan's hand. But I guess that is far less believable that having someone grow GILLS on their ANKLES that happen to look like wings and are able to no only let someone fly, but carry many tons of weight while doing so.

Your finger-flicking analogy doesn't quite work.  The claws aren't movable digits, they're bone spikes.  As for the Submariner, I wasn't aware that the wings were gills.  If they were, I'd imagine he would have drowned when he lost them in JB's run.  As far as how he is able to fly with them, the truth is, the nature of this ability has never been explained.  At any rate, they may not be the best idea in the world, but at least he was created with them (when superhero comics were still in their infancy); they weren't added on later.  Same holds true for Angel.


 QUOTE:
But saying that the NEW status quo doesn't make sense because you don't think they should change it is intelectually dishonest.

That's not why I'm saying it doesn't make sense.  It doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense.



Edited by Paulo Pereira on 29 February 2008 at 6:33pm
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Ray Brady
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 6:51pm | IP Logged | 3  

"Show me how it is more "plausable" or logical for a human being to grow
feathered wings that allow him to fly than it is to grow bone claws. "
-----
Obviously, none of the X-Men's powers are plausible. There is no natural
process that is going to allow human beings to teleport, or turn their skin
to metal, or control the weather. Thus, if Wolverine had been created as a
character with bone claws that popped out of his arms, I don't think the
idea would have been seen as any more ridiculous than Iceman or
Nightcrawler.

The problem with this particular revelation is not that it's less plausible
than the other X-Men's powers, but that it's less plausible than what we
had already been told. When he was introduced, Wolverine was believed
to be a guy with special gloves that housed spring-loaded metal claws.
By comic book standards, that's extremely plausible. A few years later, we
learn the claws had actually been implanted in his arms. OK, that's more
of a stretch, but still well within the realm of comic book technology. (You
have to wonder how many deranged goth kids have already tried it.)

Then we learn that they're NOT spring-loaded metal claws implanted in
his arms; they're natural bone spurs that eject just like they were spring-
loaded, that were just coated in metal. Scientifically, that's no less
plausible than a guy who can fly by screaming really loud, but it's WAY
less plausible than the explanation we had been living with for two
decades already. Like so much that has happened to the X-Men in the
last 20 years, it's a step BACKWARD from credibility.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:15pm | IP Logged | 4  

Angel really presents no problem in terms of the wings having to be extra
limbs. Humans are, indeed, born with extra limbs from time to time. A
young Indian girl had a partial twin surgically removed just last year. The
feathers are something else, but not insurmountable.
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John Byrne
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:17pm | IP Logged | 5  

I will say this -- Wolverine's bone claws were an improvement over the
biological adamantium that were considered at one time. Yes, not only
a metal growing in a body due to mutation, but an alloy!
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:24pm | IP Logged | 6  

I would also add that in the cases of Namor, Nightcrawler and Banshee that there is a sense of the unknown and unknowable as to how their powers work.  There is some room there for the reader's imagination and suspension of disbelief.  This is not the case with Wolverine's claws.  There is really only one way they can work and it doesn't make sense for it to exist naturally.  A mere glance at the wrist bones explains why --



Edited by Paulo Pereira on 29 February 2008 at 9:25pm
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Armindo Macieira
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 9:42pm | IP Logged | 7  

One thing that always bothered me is that Wolverine has to have is hand, wrist and forearm completely aligned when he pops his claws out, otherwise he may slash the claws through his hand or the claws may come out at his wrist...

But then I think "you're over-analizing comic book characters again"...
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Scott McKeeve
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 11:17pm | IP Logged | 8  

The technical aspects of Wolverine bother me much less than the damage to his character, or lack thereof. He was much more interesting when we knew less about him. Now it appears that Wolverine has not only been alive for a very long time but has taken an active role in the Marvel Universe, fighting alongside Cap, Nick Fury, The Black Widow, Carol Danvers, etc. for decades.

Less is so much more.

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John Benson
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 11:50pm | IP Logged | 9  

I wasn't happy with the bone claws. One thing that was set up during the X Men's run was Wolverine's fight against the berserker animal side of himself. I thought it would be interesting if, when the admantium was removed, he became a calm rational being, someone who enjoyed life a great deal more than "Wolverine" did. Write stories using the new perspective of a slightly depowered but far more rational Logan.

That way, when the claws and admantium and eventually returned to the character you can re-establish the struggle to retain his humanity. As it was, once the claws were reveal to be a part of him, rather than grafted on, there was no more struggle. He was the natural born killer, rather than someone who struggled to contain an unnatural bloodlust.

 

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Brad Krawchuk
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Posted: 29 February 2008 at 11:53pm | IP Logged | 10  

Now it appears that Wolverine has not only been alive for a very long time but has taken an active role in the Marvel Universe, fighting alongside Cap, Nick Fury, The Black Widow, Carol Danvers, etc. for decades.

---

A huge problem in my eyes as well. Ben Grimm is "Friend of the Marvel Universe" - he's gruff, sure, but he's a decent guy and he has those fun poker parties and hangs out with everybody whenever he gets the chance.

Logan (aka Not James Howlett)? Gruff, sure, but also a loner, anti-social, anti-authority, hot-headed and more often than not confrontational just for the sake of being confrontational. Can he have paternal feelings for Kitty or Jubilee? Sure. So long as we understand those relationships are special precisely because they go against his type. They shouldn't be the norm.

But no - now he's teamed up with everyone, he's chummy chummy with everyone... it's like because he's popular in our world he has to be popular in his world too - and that ain't right in the least.

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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 01 March 2008 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 11  


 QUOTE:
One thing that always bothered me is that Wolverine has to have is hand, wrist and forearm completely aligned when he pops his claws out, otherwise he may slash the claws through his hand or the claws may come out at his wrist...

But then I think "you're over-analizing comic book characters again"...

There could be a mechanism that prevents it.

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Brian Hunt
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Posted: 01 March 2008 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 12  

How did Wolverine get his adamantium skeleton back after Magneto removed it?
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