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Topic: What constitutes a swipe? (Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post ReplyPost New Topic
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Wayne Osborne
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:26pm | IP Logged | 1  

"I don't honestly know. And it gets very tough to determine. There are
artists who started their careers aping a popular artist or swiping like
crazy that grew out of it--where do they fit in?"

The simple answer is they used to swipe but now they don't. The complex
answer may be in why they chose to change or why they grew out of it.
Whether they felt bad about doing it or wanted to show what they could
do on their own or any combination of the two - the point is they stopped
doing it. And that obviously implies some inferiority in comics done by
swiping - at least in the mind of the artists who used to and now don't.


"And isolated to single
instances--like the Galactus' ship and S.H.I.E.L.D. Helicarrier examples--
it gets very difficult to nail down just why one is deemed okay and the
other isn't."

Again, I think it's easy to determine when you look at he entire body of
work. Does he swipe all the time? Is there a pattern to it? The answers to
those questions determines whether it's a swipe or homage.


"Still, even if it was ultimately determined that the Galactus' ship shot was
a swipe--it's pretty insignificant given the body of John's work."


I don't think it was a swipe based on John's body of work. But I agree
that it is insignificant.


"Where would you put pasting in photocopies of photographs in there? Is
that ethical? What if the person doing the pasting didn't take the
photograph?"

When Jack did it, he made something new on the page to illustrate a new
idea or place - it was mostly for the Negative Zone wasn't it? Could he
have drawn it? Yes. But at this point, he was experimenting with the
medium. In cases like that, I have no problem with it. However when you
get into cases like the Amy Grant/Dr. Strange cover from back in the day,
I have a problem with it (not as much as Amy did, but still). Using lots of
photo-reference might not be unethical (but you should get permission)
but I think it's a bit lazy and very jarring when reading a comic.......hey,
what's Brad Pitt doing in here? Stuff like that takes me right out of the
reading zone.

WO
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 2  

If we're looking at some sort of objective standard for unethical swipes, we need to first decide what is ethical. Here are some suggestions.

If you're working on , say,  a Batman comic, to swipe poses, compositions, panel sequences etc in a flashback to a specific event (in order to evoke the original story and artwork) is OK.

If you're doing a pastiche or parody (like what Will Elder did so remarkably well), any copied or evocative imagery may be permissible as long as it remains clear that it's intent is precisely evocative. (this may cover homages as well, though the intent here is more praise or tribute than parody)

If you're copying your own work,  whether artwork or photos staged by you or any other form of art to which you own the copyright (or where you work with the approval of the copyright holder), that is ok. This covers among other things the use of likenesses and designs for licensed work (movie and TV adaptations).

If the artwork or photos being copied are in the public domain then there are no legal implications. For recognizable works (such as the Mona Lisa) the work should be evocative of the original. For generic works (such as drawings or photos of buildings,vehicles or clothing) any public domain work may be used as photo/art reference.

For artwork and photos still in copyright, these should be avoided when specific (as in works of art or currently in commercial use) but may be used when generic (depicting only real life or actual persons without staging or compositional properties that clearly are parts of the photographer or artist's personal expression) This one is a bit iffy. Basically sources like these are more in need of change or "reinterpretation" and care should be taken to not copy them too closely in terms of composition and camera angles.

For art or photos still in copyright, but that have a historical significance, there are fair use allowances that should enter into it. While, say, photos of the 2 towers burning on 9/11 2001 are doubtlessly still in copyright, the historical significance of the event would make an exact copy of such art accpetable. This also applies to a lot of other news stories and historical records as well as the depiction of the likenesses of famous people and politicians in specific noteworthy circumstances.

Any literal tracing (whether lightboxed, photoshopped or artographed) of another artist's copyrighted commercial work (whether drawing or photo) without their permission is not ok.  

Does that work?

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Al Cook
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:28pm | IP Logged | 3  


 QUOTE:
...grabbing for the stylization without any of the literally
decades of solid drawing that lies under and behind that stylization.
Kirby isn't just squared off fingertips and lots of little dots in
explosions...


This may be slightly off-topic (or maybe it isn't) but this leads into
something that's been a question of mine for a while now:

What is the deal with Steve Rude?

I know a lot of people like him, but I'm not familiar with him; all I've seen
is a few commissions that have been posted here. And all I see is Kirby
rip-off. Is he a decent artist in his own right, or is he just someone aping
Kirby for fun and profit?
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Al Cook
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 4  

And that She-Hulk JB just posted to explain the lip thing? I know it's just
lines on paper, but... ZOWIE! Hummina-hummina!
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 5  

Unless there has been a recent change in Rude's work, of which I am unaware, I don't see hims as "aping" Kirby. Like Simonson, Mignola, or me when I am doing something like the Fourth World, Rude goes for the same dynamics as Kirby, without mimicking the line or form. And therein likes the difference!
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Trevor Giberson
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:31pm | IP Logged | 6  

 John Byrne wrote:
A true fan, a true admirer of Jack Kirby should be disgusted by
GODLAND, not applauding it. (And Image, the Oh, Look! We are just
like Kirby! See how Marvel is Ripping Us Off!
brigade, should be
ashamed for publishing it.)


Too harsh.   Despite your dedication Kirby and standing as a great comics artist, I don't think you get to decide what makes a true fan or admirer.  'Cause count myself as both a Kirby fan and admirer, and I think Scioli's art shows a lot of love for the King.
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Stephen Sadowski
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 7  

Aric, I dont know if Johns 'famous' for  the lip shine..Its just something that I latched onto from a very early age and marks it as unique to JB, and later to countless others.
 Personally I dont think of rubble with JB,  the crackle stuff, maybe..but for me its the shape of heads and mouths. Dunno why.
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Jesus Garcia
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:32pm | IP Logged | 8  

Let's go a little further here.

What about Jack Kirby's collages? I think these appeared as early as his FF stuff, in the Galactus trilogy. The pictures where not credited and clearly they are photos and not drawings. The only apparent creative effort was in the arrangement and the physical cutting and pasting.

This is what now: shortcut, laziness, swiping, rip-off, homage?

I wonder whether Goodman figured he didn't owe Kirby his normal page rate when Jack delivered this batch to the office.

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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:33pm | IP Logged | 9  

I wonder what Kirby would say about Scioli.

••

He'd probably say what Neal said of my early work -- "This is good me, but
what can he do?"

He'd say "good" because he was being polite, of course.
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Paulo Pereira
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:35pm | IP Logged | 10  

I would say Rude is heavily inspired by Kirby but he is in no way a ripoff.  The "Dude" can draw.
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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:36pm | IP Logged | 11  

Despite your dedication Kirby and standing as a great comics artist, I don't
think you get to decide what makes a true fan or admirer. 'Cause count
myself as both a Kirby fan and admirer, and I think Scioli's art shows a lot of
love for the King.

••

So much "love" he apes him, badly.

Can ya feel it? Can ya FEEL it, people?
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John Byrne
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Posts: 133576
Posted: 21 February 2008 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 12  

What about Jack Kirby's collages? I think these appeared as early as his FF
stuff, in the Galactus trilogy. The pictures where not credited and clearly
they are photos and not drawings. The only apparent creative effort was
in the arrangement and the physical cutting and pasting.

This is what now: shortcut, laziness, swiping, rip-off, homage?

••

None of the above. For one thing, Kirby was working in the long ago
days before Photoshop. Those collages of his are literal cut and
paste.

Second, he takes the original forms and images and so alters their
context that they become entirely new images.

That's what a real artist does.
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