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Knut Robert Knutsen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 1
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"The physical artwork in this analogy would be plans to a house, not the
house itself.
----
And how does that work exactly? Is someone building a Marvels statue?"
No, the "Design plan" is the image JB created. The physical page is the "house." Using his ostensibly rejected "design plans" to build a new but essentially identical "house" with a different contractor is intellectual property theft.
And all that mumbo jumbo about "who owns copyright with the character being from Marvel and DC or in recreations of covers copyright to a company" -- there are rules, informally agreed upon, that govern this. Single recreations or one-off illustrations are allowed. That is the basic rule for commissions.
I think you'd have difficulty finding any professional doing commissions who'd find Ditton's actions ethically defensible. Which I presume is why JB won't have further business dealings with him.
I don't have a problem with Ditton rejecting the commission. JB set down rules saying he'd accept any rejection without need for justification. But the "recreation" is essentially a way for Ditton to have the same commission for (presumably) less money while incorporating his changes. That is the problem.
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Al Cook
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Posts: 12736
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:00am | IP Logged | 2
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MAC;
Did Pat Ditton make it clear to you that he wasn't buying JB's piece? If he
didn't, I don't see that you did anything wrong at all. There is a big
difference between "I want a recreation with nega-bands too" and "I
want a recreation of the JB piece that I'm not paying JB for, but with
nega-bands".
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14857
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:01am | IP Logged | 3
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What’s the end product in the architect scenario?
What's the end product in the Marvels commission scenario?
And who still holds physical property?
---
The end product is irrelevant. If the an architect's plans get stolen, but no
houses get built, does it negate the fact that the plans were stolen?
As an artist, do you feel you are being compensated solely for producing
a piece of paper with lines on it, or are you being compensated for
designing and laying out what is on the paper?
I've purchased commissions from artists who charge for a digital
commission and ask for extra to have the art physically sent. Should I tell
that since I've received no physical artwork, they didn't really do
anything? I think Darren outlined it best, by taking the scan of the
commission and having someone else "recreate" it, Pat, has pretty much
accepted the commission.
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Eric White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 October 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1067
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 4
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So Anthony, you would be okay with a person asking you for a commission,
you putting the work into it and then have the person decide they they don't
like it and decide not to pay you for it. Then you find out the person asked
another artist to redraw the commission, almost exactly the same way, and
paying that artist.
Do you need your artist ethics rulebook to tell you how you would feel about
that scenario?
You knew Pat didn't pay Byrne, that's why he had you draw him an exact
copy, with the fixed nega-bands, what facts are we missing that we don't
know about?
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Mike Murray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 530
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:03am | IP Logged | 5
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"For the record I drew the piece and was paid, I did not have artists ethics
rule book out and missed the part on intellectual property and proper
etiquette."
********************************************
Anthony, I'm no artist, but what you've said here touches on the core of the debate. Did you, in fact, "draw" the piece or did you simply trace the majority of it from JB's original drawing?
Or are those two acts the same thing in your mind?
Did you know at the time that you were being paid to copy work a commission that JB had done all the work on but had not been paid for himself? Sneering references to "rule books" aside, can you see where that might be a bit questionable, in terms of ethics?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133339
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:04am | IP Logged | 6
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…I drew the piece…
••
/ drew the piece. You traced it.
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6024
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:05am | IP Logged | 7
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Way I see it Mac did the job asked of him.
The commssioner is due payent to both MAC -and- John.
eited to add, a soldier fires the bullet, the Generals the one that ordered it.
Edited by Darren Taylor on 20 February 2008 at 10:07am
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Scott Nickel
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 July 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 132
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 8
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Knut said:
No, the "Design plan" is the image JB created. The physical page is the "house."
>>Now you've got it.
Using his ostensibly rejected "design plans" to build a new but essentially identical "house" with a different contractor is intellectual property theft.
>>Oops...there it goes...
And all that mumbo jumbo about "who owns copyright with the character being from Marvel and DC or in recreations of covers copyright to a company" -- there are rules, informally agreed upon, that govern this.
>>>Agreed upon? Isn't it more accurate to say the company's just look the other way?
Single recreations or one-off illustrations are allowed. That is the basic rule for commissions.
>>>But couldn't the copyright holders change that policy at any time by pursuing all violators?
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Aric Shapiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4349
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 9
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Is that one image on top of the other?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133339
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:08am | IP Logged | 10
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Is that one image on top of the other?
•••
Yes, courtesy of Troy Nunis early in this thread.
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Aric Shapiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4349
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:09am | IP Logged | 11
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oh my....
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Aric Shapiro
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4349
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| Posted: 20 February 2008 at 10:11am | IP Logged | 12
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One thing i will say is that tracing/lightboxing is a waste of Anthony's talent. The guy can draw. He is amazingly talented. I've commissioned him in the past, and his work is stellar. But then, I'm nearly always against lightboxing pieces.
should also add that Anthony is a nice guy....a nice guy who apologized unequivocally
Edited by Aric Shapiro on 20 February 2008 at 10:12am
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Topic Closed)
