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William Roberge
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Joined: 05 July 2006
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:17am | IP Logged | 1  

May I ask where is the She-Hulk commission now?
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Knut Robert Knutsen
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Joined: 22 September 2006
Posts: 7374
Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:24am | IP Logged | 2  

Brian, the costume is the same. The only difference is the nega-bands which are not really a part of the costume but a tool being used for a specific (albeit long) storyline. If Ditton knew JB wanted to draw the Neal Adams costume (which didn't at that point have the nega-bands)  and Ditton provided a link with a picture of the same costume but failed to point out that he provided that picture because he specifically wanted the version WITH the bands, not just to confirm the general costume, then JB was clearly not in a position to know that for certain, or even presume it.

But still, it's beside the point. JB has repeatedly said that if people don't like the finished version, they don't have to buy it. He even offered to fix it, but Ditton didn't want the piece if it had white-out on it.

What Ditton did wrong was to use JB's artwork and have someone else "finish" it after declining to buy the commissioned original. If he had bought the original, had a copy made by a different inker and then resold JB's original, this wouldn't be an issue.

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Brian Mayer
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Joined: 14 June 2007
Posts: 216
Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:27am | IP Logged | 3  

Joe, I already threw in my 2 cents on the shenanigans. "Low rent. Etc."

JB, a picture is worth a thousand words.  If there is a difference in the confirmation, it lays on Jim's shoulders to clarify.  A big part of customer service is clarifying expectations. Now, by the number of compliments I have seen of Jim, I have no doubt this was just a one time thing.

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Mike Baswell
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Joined: 02 May 2004
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 4  

Not to get OT here, but if there are ever any more declined pieces and you and Jim decide to have a half-price sale JB, I'd be glad to be 'disappointed' all over the place with one of those pieces.

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Joel Biske
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Joined: 18 January 2007
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:32am | IP Logged | 5  

It looks to me as if this is a case of a misunderstanding gone bad. in JB's earlier post where he quotes his emails with Jim the link directed me to the cover of Captain Marvel #29 on Mile High's website. This image shows Captain Marvel with the longer hair and I'm thinking the Nega Bands on his wrists (forgive me here, I'm not that familiar with the character. I'm assuming the gold bands on his wrists are the Nega Bands)

This is not the Adams version that JB chose.

My question is this... did Pat specifically reference that cover thinking it would cover his preference? It seems that there was something missing in the communication there.

JB says in the same post that he could "correct" the piece, but only using white out..... that seems fair to me. Pat still can and did refuse that solution... and the commission.

Commissioning the EXACT piece (plus the bands)from someone else is pretty low. The legality of such a move is questionable. While the intellectual property WAS copied, swiped, however you phrase it... copyright law is vague and finicky that way....

JB could sue Anthony to protect his interests, but as I understand it, he would have to show financial loss from the stolen property. If JB sold the original commission, a judge would most likely say Yes, this is your property but wouldn't award a damage amount because JB was not financially affected by the swiped artwork.

JB could sue Pat and both sides would have to provide their records and a judge would decide if JB fulfilled his end and force Pat to pay or not.

I don't blame JB at all for his stance on not giving future commissions to Pat. It's his choice. If it costs him additional commissions from Pat (or anyone else) its still HIS choice.

I see what Pat did as ethically questionable at best. If he wanted to give that $$ to someone else, get an original piece. Anthony is way too talented to be copying stuff like that. I would have liked to have seen his own take on the commission...


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Brian Mayer
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Joined: 14 June 2007
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:51am | IP Logged | 6  

Knut...if you go into a restaurant and order veal piccata put point to a picture of veal marsalla since that is what you really wanted, what would you expect the waitor to do? To me, if that waitor has good customer service skills, he will correct me on the difference so that there is no misunderstanding.

In this case, when a confirmation was sent, the reply should have been "No. That isn't what you are getting." Because it wasn't what he was going to get. It is one drawing, one set of pencil marks. The pencil marks go on a piece of paper looking like the reference, or they don't.

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Scott Nickel
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Joined: 10 July 2005
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 7  

Does it? The layout and linework was plagiarized. I'm thinking of a
comparable situation with Hollywood spec scripts. Even though the
properties belong to the studios, studios will refuse to look at a spec
script without a waiver or just outright buy a spec script even though they
own the rights to a character, because if elements unique to that script
show up in later work, they leave themselves open to a lawsuit.

---------------

Guys, commissions are a completely different ballgame. This was not a comic book that was published. It was a drawing made for a private collector.

You have inkers doing "recreations" of art they didn't draw. You have artists drawing characters they don't own. If you wanted to pay Joe Schmoe to draw a piece that looked almost exactly like a Byrne piece, you could. You could also pay an artist to recreate the work of someone else -- for your personal collection. 

This is the "gray area" under which commissions fall.

Could the copyright holders take action against artists for making money off their creations and not giving them a cut? Sure, but it would be an impossible task.

 

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John Byrne
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:03am | IP Logged | 8  

Guys, commissions are a completely different ballgame. This was not a comic book that was published. It was a drawing made for a private collector.

You have inkers doing "recreations" of art they didn't draw. You have artists drawing characters they don't own. If you wanted to pay Joe Schmoe to draw a piece that looked almost exactly like a Byrne piece, you could. You could also pay an artist to recreate the work of someone else -- for your personal collection.

This is the "gray area" under which commissions fall.

••

If you think this is a "gray area", remind me never to do business with you!

If, for instance, Joe Rubenstein does a recreation of a cover I penciled and he inked, that's a clearly defined area, and not uncommon. In fact, I have often wondered why those who seek out specific recreations don't go first to the inker, since that would more likely guarantee the line work being the same.

If a "recreation" is done by someone of a piece of work with which they had no original involvement -- didn't pencil it, didn't ink it -- then this is more of a swipe. But this happens, too, and maybe that area is a little bit gray. But, at least, the penciler and inker of the original got paid for their work.

In this case, a piece was commissioned. As is usually the case, I took no money in advance, so, when the piece was declined, I was not paid and, unless the piece is sold at a later date, I am out that much money. This is work done without recompense, so money lost.

Now, the individual who has declined the work and not paid me for it, has used the work to get another piece done by a different artist. A cold swipe, save for a few minor details. This is the equivalent of hiring an architect to design a house for you, refusing to pay for his design, then giving a copy of that design to another architect, who adds a few flourishes of his own and calls it "V.2". I'm pretty sure out in the real world that would probably be illegal.

Most certainly it would not be a "gray area".

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Aric Shapiro
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:07am | IP Logged | 9  

I don't recall seeing that She Hulk before.  Not saying I haven't seen it, but I just do NOT recall it at this point. 

John's policy of paying after the work is complete has worked very well so far, and this incident will hopefully not impact that rule.  I don't believe that Pat set out to reject a piece and have it traced by another artist.  Unfortunately, that is the route that was ultimately taken.  That was one hundred percent categorically WRONG.  I mean that is just obvious--even to Pat.  He knows having another artist copy the piece line for line was wrong.  He did it in anger.

I hope the powers that be will allow him to return so that he can apologize properly, and if he does so, I hope he can return to being a meaningful participant here.

 

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Aric Shapiro
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 10  

"Now, the individual who has declined the work and not paid me for it, has used the work to get another piece done by a different artist. A cold swipe, save for a few minor details. This is the equivalent of hiring an architect to design a house for you, refusing to pay for his design, then giving a copy of that design to another architect, who adds a few flourishes of his own and calls it "V.2". I'm pretty sure out in the real world that would probably be illegal"

Wow.  I mean wow.  I have a case that is word for word exactly what you described here.  We go to trial in 4 months time

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Fred J Chamberlain
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Joined: 30 August 2006
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Posts: 4037
Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:11am | IP Logged | 11  

My understanding of Pat's telling of the story is that he used his skill to trace the piece, not that MAC traced it. Castrillo inked Pat's tracing, no?
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Al Cook
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Joined: 21 December 2004
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Posted: 20 February 2008 at 8:13am | IP Logged | 12  

Which side are you representing, Ari?
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