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Bruce Buchanan
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 June 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4797
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:06pm | IP Logged | 1
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I agree, Vinny. The whole writer/editor concept really defeats the entire purpose of having an editor in the first place.
I've worked with plenty of editors as a magazine and newspaper writer. While I don't always agree with them, I certainly see their purpose -- there needs to be a neutral, third-party overseer who can make decisions based on what's best for the publication and its readers.
I also agree that Wolfman's actions were incredibly unprofessional. Like Geoff says, he wasn't just sticking it to Shooter -- he was sticking it to all those folks who had to pick up the pieces after he walked out. He owed it to his co-workers to give some kind of notice.
Glenn, I see what you are saying about Wolfman having a great job lined up at D.C. (heck, his work on Teen Titans was some of the best writing of the era, in my book). But you know the comics business -- someone working at Marvel today easily could end up at D.C. tomorrow. I'm surprised he would risk alienating so many folks in such a way. Even if you don't care about your co-workers, I'd at least be scared of such an unprofessional action backfiring on me down the road.
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Glenn Greenberg
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged | 2
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<<<I think I'd have to side with Shooter for ditching that concept.>>>
I've been a professional writer and editor for a long time now. I believe,
for the most part, that a writer should NOT be his/her own editor. Thing
is, the writer has to hope that he/she is blessed with a GOOD editor.
I will say that it's very difficult to be granted that kind of creative freedom
for a long period of time and then LOSE it, and suddenly have someone
else overseeing you, whose sensibilities may be very different from yours.
And in the case of Jim Shooter, it would seem that his sensibilities were
at odds with quite a few of the established writers at Marvel during that
period of time.
Sure, there were abuses in the system. There was the notorious Dreaded
Deadline Doom--a number of books shipped late. (Unlike today, right?)
I wouldn't say that I'm a strong advocate for the Writer/Editor system, but
I will say that a lot of great work--some of my all-time favorite comics-
-came out of it: THE TOMB OF DRACULA, CONAN THE BARBARIAN,
HOWARD THE DUCK, Marv's run on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and Archie
Goodwin's run on STAR WARS.
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8120
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 3
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I'd probably be much more comfortable with the idea if they were just credited as "writers", with no editor credit listed at all.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133325
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:27pm | IP Logged | 4
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One of the reasons Shooter busted up the writer/editors was that many of them had become entirely too proprietorial -- as when Chris and I, working on MARVEL TEAM-UP, putatively a Spider-Man book, asked if we could use Kraven the Hunter, and were told No, the writer/editor of one of the Spider-Man titles had "plans" for Kraven -- three years hence!!
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Dave Phelps
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4184
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
I wouldn't say that I'm a strong advocate for the Writer/Editor system, but
I will say that a lot of great work--some of my all-time favorite comics- |
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Or everything done by Stan Lee in the early days... I think some books benefitted from a "writer/editor" (at both companies - some of my favorite 80s DCs followed that model) while others would have benefitted from having different people in each role. Depends on the people, really.
Edited by Dave Phelps on 26 February 2008 at 3:31pm
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Geoff Gibson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5741
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 6
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Geoff,
Marv WAS the editor on Star Trek and Spider-Man. He was a
Writer/Editor, dig? That means he was editing the books he was writing.
But Shooter instituted a new policy abolishing all Writer/Editors. As a
result of that policy, Marv was gone from Marvel. (As was Roy Thomas.)
Marv's last credited issue as writer/editor of AMAZING SPIDER-MAN was
#204. With issue 205, the credited editor was Denny O'Neil and the
credited writer was David Michelinie.
Roger and JB's issue was #206.
I understand your point Glenn but I still think you owe your former employer something -- or at the very least the poor sap who will be taking over for you. He could have left an "exit memo" for the team taking over. It come down to how you want your colleagues to remember you -- as the guy who took the high road, or the guy who left them to clean up your messes.
Edited by Geoff Gibson on 26 February 2008 at 3:34pm
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Vinny Valenti
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 8120
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 3:35pm | IP Logged | 7
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I would call Stan Lee a special case, since Marvel was essentially his baby. The company probably benefited from having a single "voice" in its formative years. But once several fingers were in the pie (as in JB's example above), then the merits of the writer/editor begin to fall apart.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4622
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 8
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Glenn Greenberg wrote:
I will say that it's very difficult to be granted that kind of creative freedom
for a long period of time and then LOSE it, and suddenly have someone
else overseeing you, whose sensibilities may be very different from yours.
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This is true. I've read an interview where Marv talked about how as editor he had
fought to keep the Tomb of Dracula team consistent, even down to
letterer John Costanza. They had something like 40 consecutive issues
with the same writer, artist, inker, and letterer. However, in the first black
and white magazine issue of the series (in which Rick Marshall took
over as editor) Palmer was replaced by another inker because Marshall
had put him on another assignment. Wolfman was livid, and viewed this
as a harbinger of the type of problems he would have on a regular
basis, no longer being editor.
At the time, DC did not allow writer/editors, so initially Marv and Roy had to give up their writer/editor status regardless of whether they left Marvel or not. But Roy's standpoint (based on interviews I've read) was that he viewed it as a "demotion" to have his editor status taken away. He figured if he was going to get demoted anyway, he might as well go to DC, just to make a stand on principle. I imagine Marv felt similarly. And a couple years later DC changed the rules and did allow Roy and Marv to become writer/editors again.
QUOTE:
I wouldn't say that I'm a strong advocate for the Writer/Editor system, but
I will say that a lot of great work--some of my all-time favorite comics-
-came out of it: THE TOMB OF DRACULA, CONAN THE BARBARIAN,
HOWARD THE DUCK, Marv's run on AMAZING SPIDER-MAN, and Archie
Goodwin's run on STAR WARS.
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Conan, Tomb of Dracula and Howard were the first things I thought of also. Some of the best comics ever, from any decade. I also really liked Roy's Invaders, Kirby's Eternals and Len Wein's Hulk, also writer/editor products. The fact is (again, based on what I've read) there was not a lot of editorial oversight at pre-Shooter 70's Marvel regardless of whether you were a writer/editor or not. Steve Englehart has talked about how writers were pretty much given carte blanche to do what they wanted as long as it sold. So there probably was not a lot of difference, say, in Roy editing himself or in Roy editing Englehart or Gerber. In either case, the writer was pretty much left to his own devices.
Lack of editorial oversight is rarely an optimal situation, and you can argue that Marvel put out some lousy books in the 70's and had lots of problems with lateness. At the same time, there also were some amazing runs on books, and I can imagine that a lot of stuff say in Englehart's Doctor Strange or Gerber's Man-Thing or Starlin's Warlock might not have gotten past the more hands-on editing style that emerged at 80's Marvel.
Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 26 February 2008 at 7:53pm
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Brad Teschner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3933
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| Posted: 26 February 2008 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 9
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Just look what being "writer/editor" did to George Lucas's latest Star Wars trilogy.
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Orlando Teuta Jr
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1043
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| Posted: 27 February 2008 at 5:56am | IP Logged | 10
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Made him a ton of money?
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Brad Teschner
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 3933
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| Posted: 27 February 2008 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 11
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no...it allowed to him to shoot a crappy script that was at least two re-writes away from being a good movie.
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Howard Mackie
Byrne Robotics Security
Armed and Dangerous
Joined: 16 February 2005
Posts: 666
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| Posted: 27 February 2008 at 9:34am | IP Logged | 12
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I too am no fan of the writer/editor system... I really beleieve it is IMPOSSIBLE for writer to truly edit his own work. Having said that... I worked a few EDITORS who were frustrated WRITERS and THEY were the worst. I once had a editor say to me(upon submittign a plot which I truly thought was one of the best I had ever written... and that had been approved every step of the way in trhe process) "It is a good plot... just not the one I had imagined for the story." My feeling was that since he had never communicated any of what "Imagined" HE should find someone else to write the story. I quit the project.
The job of a professional editor is a very specific thing, and we should not allow our own dreams and aspirations to get in the way of the work.
Howard
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